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> Putin had already attacked multiple countries before. Georgia, Chechnya As always, westerners leave in an information bubble. Chechnya was always a part of R

> Putin had already attacked multiple countries before. Georgia, Chechnya As always, westerners leave in an information bubble. Chechnya was always a part of Russia. It was a civil war. Ukraine was always a part of Russia until 1991, btw, there was never a separate country called "Ukraine" before 1991 - you can easily find that even in Western history books, although I'm sure they'll be rewritten in some way soon, if not already. Georgia launched attack in 2008, it is easily confirmed by: 1. News from that time (there was a several days delay between Georgia attack and when Medvedev decided to respond, during that time Putin called a press conference and said: "Georgia has started an attack and is bombing civilians, but Western press is silent about it". You can still find recordings of that press conference on video hosting sites, I believe. 2. There was an independent EU investigation that also confirmed that Georgia started the attack in 2008. 3. Last year Georgian government itself confirmed that they were attacking first. It never cease to amaze me in what distorted information reality people live. BTW, it's for the best, because it was the reason why West could coerce Georgia into starting a war in 2008. All the population, including the top politics lived in an alternative reality, so they basically said to Georgia: "Russia is weak and corrupt, they have no army, no weapons, they have only shovels, and even their shovels are rusty. So you'll easily get what you want without any resistance." Actually, more or less the same repeated in 2022. Just read HN comments from 2022: "Russians are surrendering by tens of thousands a day, they don't want to fight with warm and welcoming and kind Ukrainian soldiers", "Ukraine burns thousands of Russian tanks and armored vehicles a day: here's a photo proof", etc, etc. So this distortion of reality works the other way round, when West bases its actions on it. There are lies from top to bottom, and then everyone makes all kinds of decisions based on those lies.

actionfromafar 1y ago
You can call it whatever you want, Russia is killing a lot of people in places which used to be peaceful.
- ponector 1y ago
  Funny twist is they are killing people on territories which have been friendly to russia, mostly used russian language in private life. Friendly doesn't mean they want to be occupied, though.
saagarjha 1y ago
[flagged]
- anticodon 1y ago
  So, what is my mistake? When and where existed "Ukraine" before 1991?
  - saagarjha 1y ago
    Hacker News should just ban your account. After all you didn't have it before 2014, so I guess the natural state of the site is not having you around.
  - agubelu 1y ago
    Even if your premise was true, which it isn't, do we justify the imperialist invasion of a sovereign state because it was founded after some threshold year? Countries are not a fact of nature. They change, come and go for a large number of reasons. The Ukrainian people are constituted in a country and have repeatedly expressed they don't wish to be part of Russia. If you want to force them to be at gunpoint, at least be open about it instead of hiding behind a historical pseudo-argument.
  - wqaatwt 1y ago
    1918? Most of the territory of modern Ukraine. Before it was conquered by Bolsheviks. Also Russia as an independent state ceased to exist in 1922. So it’s hardly that different. Both Russia and Ukraine only became independent countries in 1991 when they decided they to leave the USSR.
PedroBatista 1y ago
[flagged]
- anticodon 1y ago
  [flagged]
ponector 1y ago
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania were always part of "Russia". Would you suggest they should be invaded as soon as Ukraine is fully occupied?
- wqaatwt 1y ago
  Yes, that’s literally what these people are saying. Russia is allegedly entitled to own half of Europe due to some deranged reasons. Everyone who disagrees with that is supposedly a nazi or something similar. The concept of hypocrisy is entirely foreign and incomprehensible to anyone who honestly supports Russian imperialism..
  - ponector 1y ago
    We can flip the question: when German, Japan and other should invade Russia to get back their territories? Königsberg(Kaliningrad) was always German. Kuril islands were always Japanese. While Russian army is distracted - Germany and Japan should get their territories back now.
- workfromspace 1y ago
  > Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania were always part of "Russia" No it wasn't. Here's a quick timeline of Estonia. 1219–1346 (127 years): Danish Kingdom 1346-1561 (215 years): Livonia, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth 1561–1710 (149 years): Swedish Empire 1710–1917 (207 years): Russian Empire 1944–1991 (47 years): Soviets
  - ponector 1y ago
    Guess what will be the result of same "quick timeline" for Ukraine? Russians are good at creating false narratives.
wqaatwt 1y ago
> there was never a separate country called "Ukraine" before 1991 By your standards there was no separate country called Russia between 1918 and 1991. So how is this different? Also absurd argument. There was no country called Belgium until the 1830s. So what? > So this distortion of reality works the other way round So your justification for distorting reality is that other people are allegedly doing that so it’s fine for you to engage in that as well?
- ponector 1y ago
  > there was never a separate country called "Ukraine" before 1991 Btw that is simply not true. There has been independent Ukraine few years by the end of WWI. Unfortunately, eventually they lost the war to the red army and been occupied by Moscow .
- ashoeafoot 1y ago
  the nazis came as far as they did because a ton of peoole greeted them as liberators and joined their new oppressors to fight for a free homeland. You dont do that unless you really hate the empire you are imprisoned in..
  - dfadsadsf 1y ago
    Germans were pretty good at exploiting ethnic grievances in multiple countries - Czhech vs Slovak, Croats vs Serbs, Bulgars vs Greek and Hungarian vs everyone that have nothing to do oppression and fight for homeland. People underestimate what a clusterfuck of ethnicities pre WW2 Eastern Europe was. Resettlement after WW2 created much cleaner ethnic maps and arguably the reason we had 80 years of mostly peace (Yugoslavia was last country with mix of ethnicities and wars in 90ies cleaned up it too).
sofixa 1y ago
> As always, westerners leave in an information bubble. Chechnya was always a part of Russia. It was a civil war. Ukraine was always a part of Russia until 1991, btw, there was never a separate country called "Ukraine" before 1991 - you can easily find that even in Western history books, although I'm sure they'll be rewritten in some way soon, if not already. While this is categorically not true (WWI, the Ukrainian SSR), it's also irrelevant. There wasn't an independent Czechia or Albania either, or Turkey, or Greece, or Italy, or Germany, until there was. Historical non-existence of a state doesn't mean that with the rise of nationalism in the 19th and 20th century those states didn't become entities people wanted to belong to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Ukrainian_language_suppression#:~:text=1876%20%E2%80%93%20Alexander%20II's%20Ems,all%20Ukrainian%20books%20from%20school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Ukrainian_langua... Here's a chronological list of various supressions of the Ukrainian language. There has been a semblance of a Ukrainian identity long before the 1990s. > Georgia launched attack in 2008, it is easily confirmed by: Interesting, the timeline does not add up with the independently sourced Wikipedia article on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War Is it wrong? Feel free to update it. > 2. There was an independent EU investigation that also confirmed that Georgia started the attack in 2008. link? > "Ukraine burns thousands of Russian tanks and armored vehicles a day: here's a photo proof", Yeah, where are the Russian battle groups? Where are the modern tanks? Why did last year's 9th of May parade have so few armoured vehicles?
- Detrytus 1y ago
  > Ukraine was always a part of Russia until 1991, btw, there was never a separate country called "Ukraine" before 1991 For very limited definition of "always" - Ukraine existed in different forms since like 9th century, including being a part of Duchy of Lithuania, and then Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, until 1795. Then in 1918 western Ukraine became part of Poland again. Ukraine with the borders as we know them today (OK, pre-2014) was created after WWII, as a part of Soviet Union. So no, Ukraine was never "a part of Russia", excluding the short periods when Russia conquered them by force.

actionfromafar 1y ago

You can call it whatever you want, Russia is killing a lot of people in places which used to be peaceful.

ponector 1y ago
Funny twist is they are killing people on territories which have been friendly to russia, mostly used russian language in private life. Friendly doesn't mean they want to be occupied, though.

saagarjha 1y ago

[flagged]

anticodon 1y ago
So, what is my mistake? When and where existed "Ukraine" before 1991?
- saagarjha 1y ago
  Hacker News should just ban your account. After all you didn't have it before 2014, so I guess the natural state of the site is not having you around.
- agubelu 1y ago
  Even if your premise was true, which it isn't, do we justify the imperialist invasion of a sovereign state because it was founded after some threshold year? Countries are not a fact of nature. They change, come and go for a large number of reasons. The Ukrainian people are constituted in a country and have repeatedly expressed they don't wish to be part of Russia. If you want to force them to be at gunpoint, at least be open about it instead of hiding behind a historical pseudo-argument.
- wqaatwt 1y ago
  1918? Most of the territory of modern Ukraine. Before it was conquered by Bolsheviks. Also Russia as an independent state ceased to exist in 1922. So it’s hardly that different. Both Russia and Ukraine only became independent countries in 1991 when they decided they to leave the USSR.

PedroBatista 1y ago

[flagged]

anticodon 1y ago
[flagged]

ponector 1y ago

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania were always part of "Russia". Would you suggest they should be invaded as soon as Ukraine is fully occupied?

wqaatwt 1y ago
Yes, that’s literally what these people are saying. Russia is allegedly entitled to own half of Europe due to some deranged reasons. Everyone who disagrees with that is supposedly a nazi or something similar. The concept of hypocrisy is entirely foreign and incomprehensible to anyone who honestly supports Russian imperialism..
- ponector 1y ago
  We can flip the question: when German, Japan and other should invade Russia to get back their territories? Königsberg(Kaliningrad) was always German. Kuril islands were always Japanese. While Russian army is distracted - Germany and Japan should get their territories back now.
workfromspace 1y ago
> Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania were always part of "Russia" No it wasn't. Here's a quick timeline of Estonia. 1219–1346 (127 years): Danish Kingdom 1346-1561 (215 years): Livonia, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth 1561–1710 (149 years): Swedish Empire 1710–1917 (207 years): Russian Empire 1944–1991 (47 years): Soviets
- ponector 1y ago
  Guess what will be the result of same "quick timeline" for Ukraine? Russians are good at creating false narratives.

wqaatwt 1y ago

> there was never a separate country called "Ukraine" before 1991 By your standards there was no separate country called Russia between 1918 and 1991. So how is this different? Also absurd argument. There was no country called Belgium until the 1830s. So what? > So this distortion of reality works the other way round So your justification for distorting reality is that other people are allegedly doing that so it’s fine for you to engage in that as well?

ponector 1y ago
> there was never a separate country called "Ukraine" before 1991 Btw that is simply not true. There has been independent Ukraine few years by the end of WWI. Unfortunately, eventually they lost the war to the red army and been occupied by Moscow .
ashoeafoot 1y ago
the nazis came as far as they did because a ton of peoole greeted them as liberators and joined their new oppressors to fight for a free homeland. You dont do that unless you really hate the empire you are imprisoned in..
- dfadsadsf 1y ago
  Germans were pretty good at exploiting ethnic grievances in multiple countries - Czhech vs Slovak, Croats vs Serbs, Bulgars vs Greek and Hungarian vs everyone that have nothing to do oppression and fight for homeland. People underestimate what a clusterfuck of ethnicities pre WW2 Eastern Europe was. Resettlement after WW2 created much cleaner ethnic maps and arguably the reason we had 80 years of mostly peace (Yugoslavia was last country with mix of ethnicities and wars in 90ies cleaned up it too).

sofixa 1y ago

> As always, westerners leave in an information bubble. Chechnya was always a part of Russia. It was a civil war. Ukraine was always a part of Russia until 1991, btw, there was never a separate country called "Ukraine" before 1991 - you can easily find that even in Western history books, although I'm sure they'll be rewritten in some way soon, if not already. While this is categorically not true (WWI, the Ukrainian SSR), it's also irrelevant. There wasn't an independent Czechia or Albania either, or Turkey, or Greece, or Italy, or Germany, until there was. Historical non-existence of a state doesn't mean that with the rise of nationalism in the 19th and 20th century those states didn't become entities people wanted to belong to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Ukrainian_language_suppression#:~:text=1876%20%E2%80%93%20Alexander%20II's%20Ems,all%20Ukrainian%20books%20from%20school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Ukrainian_langua... Here's a chronological list of various supressions of the Ukrainian language. There has been a semblance of a Ukrainian identity long before the 1990s. > Georgia launched attack in 2008, it is easily confirmed by: Interesting, the timeline does not add up with the independently sourced Wikipedia article on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War Is it wrong? Feel free to update it. > 2. There was an independent EU investigation that also confirmed that Georgia started the attack in 2008. link? > "Ukraine burns thousands of Russian tanks and armored vehicles a day: here's a photo proof", Yeah, where are the Russian battle groups? Where are the modern tanks? Why did last year's 9th of May parade have so few armoured vehicles?

Detrytus 1y ago
> Ukraine was always a part of Russia until 1991, btw, there was never a separate country called "Ukraine" before 1991 For very limited definition of "always" - Ukraine existed in different forms since like 9th century, including being a part of Duchy of Lithuania, and then Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, until 1795. Then in 1918 western Ukraine became part of Poland again. Ukraine with the borders as we know them today (OK, pre-2014) was created after WWII, as a part of Soviet Union. So no, Ukraine was never "a part of Russia", excluding the short periods when Russia conquered them by force.