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Yes so your solution is to buy into that exploitative model? It’s not a tip. A tip is an additional sign of appreciation for the quality of service. When this

by rounce 1y ago

Yes so your solution is to buy into that exploitative model? It’s not a tip. A tip is an additional sign of appreciation for the quality of service. When this becomes a compulsory addition (as it seems to be in US culture) it’s simply a hidden tax, paying it in advance of receiving said service is even more ridiculous. In this case - as we seem to have established - it’s a model that hurts both worker and consumer, allowing exploitative employers to externalise costs by presenting a false moral dilemma.

ghaff 1y ago
It's not purely US. In the UK, an "optional" (though not really) ~10% service fee is often added for sit-down service though not if you just pay at the bar. So more like Anglosphere than just US--though US is both higher and more pervasive. I forget what it was the other day but I was asked about a tip for some totally routine retail transaction.
- theshackleford 1y ago
  > more like Anglosphere No such wide spread culture or requirement in 50% of the counties considered to be in the Anglosphere. Whilst it might exist in some capacity, a capacity that is far more limited, not applied in the same manner and easily avoided. It’s not even remotely the same as the situation in the US where it’s effectively mandatory across the board.
- rounce 1y ago
  Ask for it to be removed, it's absolutely optional. In many cases, though not all - because I ask discreetly every time - it doesn't even translate to any benefit for the staff, they get paid the same and it just goes in as general takings which makes it even more of a flagrant piss-take. If I do want to tip as a sign of genuine appreciation I give them cash separately and ask they share it with the kitchen team.
const_cast 1y ago
That's not a solution, but it's what you should be doing. A solution is legislation, any other "solution" is a lie and we should actively disregard anyone who claims otherwise. > it’s a model that hurts both worker and consumer Yes, it is. But by not tipping, you're objectively hurting the worker more. Notice my choice of words here - objectively. That means don't bother trying to argue against it.
- rounce 1y ago
  > but it's what you should be doing Why? You haven't even begun to further explain nor explore the wider economic and social implications of what you claim to be the one true way, nor potential alternatives (and why they are impossible or insufficient). You're making increasingly bold claims, therefore you should perhaps back them up. Simply declaring what you think to be true as objectively so, doesn't make it such. > That means don't bother trying to argue against it. Thanks, wasn't sure if this was meant to be humorous but it did give me a chuckle.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    Because as I’ve stated, it only hurts the worker. You’re not materially improving their lives, you’re literally doing the opposite. Maybe the hope is that if you kick people already down they’ll “learn a lesson” and then change their behavior? Which, I don’t know, maybe. But it seems to me it’s more likely they just continue doing what they’re doing but now worse. And, by the way, I’m using objectively correctly. If you don’t tip them, the worker makes less money on that order. Is less money for workers a better or worse outcome? It’s an incredibly simply line of logic. And, for the record, you haven’t even attempted to refute it. You haven’t said why not tipping is good. So… I’m inclined to believe I’m right and you know it. Maybe there’s some cognitive dissonance there where you want to simultaneously be pro-labor and pay labor less. Tipping isn’t a culture. Well, it is, but because we allow it to be via legislation. Of course companies enforce and employ tipping - it’s a win for them. You can’t dismantle the culture without addressing the root cause. It’s like proclaiming you’re gonna solve a poverty culture by driving around in a Range Rover. Yeah… that doesn’t fix anything. You want to believe you’re doing your part by doing nothing at all. It’s a nice thought and I’m sure comforting, but it’s not real. If you want tips to stop, then force employers to pay living wages and prevent them from gathering tips. There, problem solved.

by rounce 1y ago

ghaff 1y ago

It's not purely US. In the UK, an "optional" (though not really) ~10% service fee is often added for sit-down service though not if you just pay at the bar. So more like Anglosphere than just US--though US is both higher and more pervasive. I forget what it was the other day but I was asked about a tip for some totally routine retail transaction.

theshackleford 1y ago
> more like Anglosphere No such wide spread culture or requirement in 50% of the counties considered to be in the Anglosphere. Whilst it might exist in some capacity, a capacity that is far more limited, not applied in the same manner and easily avoided. It’s not even remotely the same as the situation in the US where it’s effectively mandatory across the board.
rounce 1y ago
Ask for it to be removed, it's absolutely optional. In many cases, though not all - because I ask discreetly every time - it doesn't even translate to any benefit for the staff, they get paid the same and it just goes in as general takings which makes it even more of a flagrant piss-take. If I do want to tip as a sign of genuine appreciation I give them cash separately and ask they share it with the kitchen team.

const_cast 1y ago

That's not a solution, but it's what you should be doing. A solution is legislation, any other "solution" is a lie and we should actively disregard anyone who claims otherwise. > it’s a model that hurts both worker and consumer Yes, it is. But by not tipping, you're objectively hurting the worker more. Notice my choice of words here - objectively. That means don't bother trying to argue against it.

rounce 1y ago
> but it's what you should be doing Why? You haven't even begun to further explain nor explore the wider economic and social implications of what you claim to be the one true way, nor potential alternatives (and why they are impossible or insufficient). You're making increasingly bold claims, therefore you should perhaps back them up. Simply declaring what you think to be true as objectively so, doesn't make it such. > That means don't bother trying to argue against it. Thanks, wasn't sure if this was meant to be humorous but it did give me a chuckle.
- const_cast 1y ago
  Because as I’ve stated, it only hurts the worker. You’re not materially improving their lives, you’re literally doing the opposite. Maybe the hope is that if you kick people already down they’ll “learn a lesson” and then change their behavior? Which, I don’t know, maybe. But it seems to me it’s more likely they just continue doing what they’re doing but now worse. And, by the way, I’m using objectively correctly. If you don’t tip them, the worker makes less money on that order. Is less money for workers a better or worse outcome? It’s an incredibly simply line of logic. And, for the record, you haven’t even attempted to refute it. You haven’t said why not tipping is good. So… I’m inclined to believe I’m right and you know it. Maybe there’s some cognitive dissonance there where you want to simultaneously be pro-labor and pay labor less. Tipping isn’t a culture. Well, it is, but because we allow it to be via legislation. Of course companies enforce and employ tipping - it’s a win for them. You can’t dismantle the culture without addressing the root cause. It’s like proclaiming you’re gonna solve a poverty culture by driving around in a Range Rover. Yeah… that doesn’t fix anything. You want to believe you’re doing your part by doing nothing at all. It’s a nice thought and I’m sure comforting, but it’s not real. If you want tips to stop, then force employers to pay living wages and prevent them from gathering tips. There, problem solved.