4 ms·

I'd love to know what Assange's endgame plan for all of this fuss is. The States aren't going to extradite him from Sweden nor, evidently, from the UK. It make

I'd love to know what Assange's endgame plan for all of this fuss is. The States aren't going to extradite him from Sweden nor, evidently, from the UK. It makes me feel like a kiljoy to say it, but there isn't any conspiracy here, and nor will any play out. Let's face it - everything will play out normally and boringly, no matter how many people shout "conspiracy!" My gut instinct is that one way or another he'll end up in Sweden, either walking free or serving a year or two in jail, and then - what? Sitting in Parisian cafes gazing wistfully upon what once could have been?

jonknee 14y ago
> The States aren't going to extradite him from Sweden nor, evidently, from the UK. It makes me feel like a kiljoy to say it, but there isn't any conspiracy here, and nor will any play out. Let's face it - everything will play out normally and boringly, no matter how many people shout "conspiracy!" Why not? It seems a fair number of powerful people in the US would love to extradite him.
- Henn 14y ago
  Exactly. The US want to extradite Richard O'Dwyer and Gary McKinnon so why not Assange?
  - vidarh 14y ago
    It's taken 10 years since McKinnon was arrested, and he's still not been handed over. When the current coalition gained power, his case was dragged out as justification for a review of the current extradition system, and a current pending review of McKinnon's case was effectively frozen and pushed under the rug quietly. In other words: The US is very successful at getting "ordinary criminals" extradited from the UK, but not so much when it comes to thornier cases like or example McKinnon's. Maybe he eventually gets extradited, but it might still drag on for ages. Meanwhile, Sweden has a history of having had its police drive people who were in their country seeking political asylum to the airport, handing them over to masked CIA agents and waiting while said CIA agents stripped the asylum seekers naked, drugged, handcuffed and chained them, and threw them on a plane to send them back to the Mubarak regime where they were tortured - Sweden has admitted as much, and paid restitution to at least one victim for torture as a direct result of Swedish actions in blatant contradiction of Swedish law. There was a massive outrage. Shortly afterwards, Swedish military intelligence determined that US intelligence agencies where still carrying out illegal rendition flights via Swedish airports with full knowing compliance from Swedish airport staff who apparently didn't get the memo... Or who got the wrong memo. Or something. I know which of the two places I would take my chances if I'd pissed off the US government.
    - awj 14y ago
      Do you have sources for this collusion by the Swedish police? I'm surprised I haven't heard about this by now.
luriel 14y ago
> I'd love to know what Assange's endgame plan for all of this fuss is. The same endgame he has had for a while: more attention, more publicity, more people donating to his bank account (which is basically what wikileaks functions as) to make up for those that got burned when he jumped bail, more book deals, who knows, perhaps a film. Whatever feeds his ego.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- runjake 14y ago
  > his bank account (which is basically what wikileaks functions as) Proof? Evidence?
  - luriel 14y ago
    First of all, most of wikileak's budget goes to pay his salary (other than that, wikileak's accounts are notoriously murky and not very transparent), second, for a while (until he was called out for it) donations to wikileaks went to his personal defense fund, which is still listed in the wikileaks donations page. Even after that, to this day, Wikileaks lists his personal P.O. BOX in Australia as a way to donate, as far as I know no auditing of what has happened to any money sent there so far over the years. This is a curious detail that I have not seen anyone report, and that can be checked if you look at his pre-wikileaks website in archive.org, which lists the same P.O. BOX. For all practical purposes, Assange is Wikileaks and Wikileaks is Assange, anyone that disagreed or questioned the wisdom of his actions has been kicked out or left in frustration at his dictatorial and self-serving management style. Edit: Oh, and almost forgot how Wikileaks kept most of the money that they had supposedly raised for Bradley Manning's defense, who in the end, is the real hero of this saga, and who is languishing in jail while Assange goes on with his egotistical show.
- daveying99 14y ago
  You're underestimating the drive hat comes from conviction in an idea. The guy has been living like a nomad. He gave away his book rights earlier to pay for his and the organization's defense. That's when all donations were blocked by credit card companies and Paypal. He could be making much more money working as a programmer in San Francisco or as a talk sho host on CNN. His fame came from the effects of his actions. It's like saying Larry Page started Google because he enjoys the limelight. He built a world-changing organization, and fame happened as a side effect. He might get rich in the future though another book or a movie. But at this point he's personally in the red.
malsme 14y ago
From what I have read about him, my guess is he's somehow trying to subvert the system... what better way to get international publicity to your cause than to be effectively placed under house arrest in a stable nation while being protected by a third party state. At the very least, it's going to make people think about the situation.
nihilocrat 14y ago
Drone attack. Just to clarify, I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat, I just have seen the circumstances of some drone attacks: against US citizens in places where no war was declared and with collateral damage shrugged off. From the US perspective, it is an easy means of getting rid of people they don't like with neither the need for judicial proceedings nor formal declaration of war. The only thing that is really stopping them right now is that Assange is currently in a highly populated part of the UK, and not in the middle of nowhere in Yemen.
- mike-cardwell 14y ago
  How many drone attacks has the US launched against white Australian journalists?
- vacri 14y ago
  The US would certainly not do a drone attack against a first-world nation, as the political fallout would be immense. They do have a great many other levers to use that the public would never see...
jlgreco 14y ago
You have the luxury of being sure no harm will fall to him if he enters Sweden. If you are wrong, you go about your daily life just as you do now. If he thought as you do and he was wrong, he would face torture and possibly execution. If the stakes were equal, would you still feel as confident?
mcantelon 14y ago
>The States aren't going to extradite him from Sweden nor, evidently, from the UK. Adrian Lamo similarly declared that Bradley Manning would do less than 6 months (Manning has been in jail for more than a year and hasn't even been sentenced yet). If the US will extradict low-level software pirates, they'll likely extradict Assange.
- GHFigs 14y ago
  Manning has been in jail for more than a year and hasn't even been sentenced yet That's because he's awaiting trial, which has been delayed by both sides for various reasons. This is normal judicial process.
  - mcantelon 14y ago
    His treatment hasn't been normal. >For most of his time at the brig, Manning was held in highly restrictive pretrial confinement. Designated a maximum-custody detainee under prevention-of-injury watch, or POI, he was confined to his cell for all but an hour a day, and has a number of other restrictions placed on him. At one point his clothes were taken away, and he was forced to sleep naked. >The ACLU called his treatment “gratuitously harsh” in a letter sent to U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates. And former State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley was forced to resign after publicly calling Manning’s treatment at Quantico “counterproductive and stupid.” http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/08/general-manning-jail-treatment/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/08/general-manning-jai... >The UN special rapporteur on torture has formally accused the US government of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment towards Bradley Manning, the US soldier who was held in solitary confinement for almost a year on suspicion of being the WikiLeaks source. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-...
    - GHFigs 14y ago
      As I said, he's awaiting trial, which has been delayed by both sides for various reasons. One of those reasons has been to gather evidence of the very things you're describing. Personally, I think this is a better way for a justice system to function than treating press reports about what third parties say as primary sources. http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/2012/08/unlawful-pretrial-punishment-motion_10.html http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/2012/08/unlawful-pre...
NathanRice 14y ago
My guess is to get America (and other highly corrupt imperialist nations) to show its true colors for everyone to see. If this WAS a conspiracy, consider this: the folks at Langley aren't stupid, they know that killing Julian or tossing him in Gitmo would only throw a keg of gasoline on the fire. The best way to erase Wikileaks from existence is to make everyone look at Julian as an evil, nasty, vile person unfit to spit upon. What are the most reviled crimes available for this? Setting him up for murder is very tricky and could easily unravel. Child molestation would be great, but this would be even harder than murder. Rape on the other hand is REALLY easy, because people have been convicted of rape with ZERO evidence, in a he-said-she-said dispute. Additionally, even if someone beats rape charges, the aura of it will linger around them basically forever; Julian will ALWAYS be an accused rapist, until the end of time. The analysts at the CIA would have looked this over from a lot of different angles, and known that this would play out as a win pretty much no matter what. What they didn't expect is that powerful conservative civilians in the united states would run their mouths so much about extradition, tribunals and treason that it would give another sovereign nation grounds to protect him.
vacri 14y ago
The US managed to extradite an Australian citizen from his native country, who had never set foot on US soil, over mere copyright infringement. I don't really share your certainty that they couldn't be bothered to extradite someone.

jonknee 14y ago

> The States aren't going to extradite him from Sweden nor, evidently, from the UK. It makes me feel like a kiljoy to say it, but there isn't any conspiracy here, and nor will any play out. Let's face it - everything will play out normally and boringly, no matter how many people shout "conspiracy!" Why not? It seems a fair number of powerful people in the US would love to extradite him.

Henn 14y ago
Exactly. The US want to extradite Richard O'Dwyer and Gary McKinnon so why not Assange?
- vidarh 14y ago
  It's taken 10 years since McKinnon was arrested, and he's still not been handed over. When the current coalition gained power, his case was dragged out as justification for a review of the current extradition system, and a current pending review of McKinnon's case was effectively frozen and pushed under the rug quietly. In other words: The US is very successful at getting "ordinary criminals" extradited from the UK, but not so much when it comes to thornier cases like or example McKinnon's. Maybe he eventually gets extradited, but it might still drag on for ages. Meanwhile, Sweden has a history of having had its police drive people who were in their country seeking political asylum to the airport, handing them over to masked CIA agents and waiting while said CIA agents stripped the asylum seekers naked, drugged, handcuffed and chained them, and threw them on a plane to send them back to the Mubarak regime where they were tortured - Sweden has admitted as much, and paid restitution to at least one victim for torture as a direct result of Swedish actions in blatant contradiction of Swedish law. There was a massive outrage. Shortly afterwards, Swedish military intelligence determined that US intelligence agencies where still carrying out illegal rendition flights via Swedish airports with full knowing compliance from Swedish airport staff who apparently didn't get the memo... Or who got the wrong memo. Or something. I know which of the two places I would take my chances if I'd pissed off the US government.
  - awj 14y ago
    Do you have sources for this collusion by the Swedish police? I'm surprised I haven't heard about this by now.

luriel 14y ago

> I'd love to know what Assange's endgame plan for all of this fuss is. The same endgame he has had for a while: more attention, more publicity, more people donating to his bank account (which is basically what wikileaks functions as) to make up for those that got burned when he jumped bail, more book deals, who knows, perhaps a film. Whatever feeds his ego.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
runjake 14y ago
> his bank account (which is basically what wikileaks functions as) Proof? Evidence?
- luriel 14y ago
  First of all, most of wikileak's budget goes to pay his salary (other than that, wikileak's accounts are notoriously murky and not very transparent), second, for a while (until he was called out for it) donations to wikileaks went to his personal defense fund, which is still listed in the wikileaks donations page. Even after that, to this day, Wikileaks lists his personal P.O. BOX in Australia as a way to donate, as far as I know no auditing of what has happened to any money sent there so far over the years. This is a curious detail that I have not seen anyone report, and that can be checked if you look at his pre-wikileaks website in archive.org, which lists the same P.O. BOX. For all practical purposes, Assange is Wikileaks and Wikileaks is Assange, anyone that disagreed or questioned the wisdom of his actions has been kicked out or left in frustration at his dictatorial and self-serving management style. Edit: Oh, and almost forgot how Wikileaks kept most of the money that they had supposedly raised for Bradley Manning's defense, who in the end, is the real hero of this saga, and who is languishing in jail while Assange goes on with his egotistical show.
daveying99 14y ago
You're underestimating the drive hat comes from conviction in an idea. The guy has been living like a nomad. He gave away his book rights earlier to pay for his and the organization's defense. That's when all donations were blocked by credit card companies and Paypal. He could be making much more money working as a programmer in San Francisco or as a talk sho host on CNN. His fame came from the effects of his actions. It's like saying Larry Page started Google because he enjoys the limelight. He built a world-changing organization, and fame happened as a side effect. He might get rich in the future though another book or a movie. But at this point he's personally in the red.

malsme 14y ago

From what I have read about him, my guess is he's somehow trying to subvert the system... what better way to get international publicity to your cause than to be effectively placed under house arrest in a stable nation while being protected by a third party state. At the very least, it's going to make people think about the situation.

nihilocrat 14y ago

Drone attack. Just to clarify, I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat, I just have seen the circumstances of some drone attacks: against US citizens in places where no war was declared and with collateral damage shrugged off. From the US perspective, it is an easy means of getting rid of people they don't like with neither the need for judicial proceedings nor formal declaration of war. The only thing that is really stopping them right now is that Assange is currently in a highly populated part of the UK, and not in the middle of nowhere in Yemen.

mike-cardwell 14y ago
How many drone attacks has the US launched against white Australian journalists?
vacri 14y ago
The US would certainly not do a drone attack against a first-world nation, as the political fallout would be immense. They do have a great many other levers to use that the public would never see...

jlgreco 14y ago

You have the luxury of being sure no harm will fall to him if he enters Sweden. If you are wrong, you go about your daily life just as you do now. If he thought as you do and he was wrong, he would face torture and possibly execution. If the stakes were equal, would you still feel as confident?

mcantelon 14y ago

>The States aren't going to extradite him from Sweden nor, evidently, from the UK. Adrian Lamo similarly declared that Bradley Manning would do less than 6 months (Manning has been in jail for more than a year and hasn't even been sentenced yet). If the US will extradict low-level software pirates, they'll likely extradict Assange.

GHFigs 14y ago
Manning has been in jail for more than a year and hasn't even been sentenced yet That's because he's awaiting trial, which has been delayed by both sides for various reasons. This is normal judicial process.
- mcantelon 14y ago
  His treatment hasn't been normal. >For most of his time at the brig, Manning was held in highly restrictive pretrial confinement. Designated a maximum-custody detainee under prevention-of-injury watch, or POI, he was confined to his cell for all but an hour a day, and has a number of other restrictions placed on him. At one point his clothes were taken away, and he was forced to sleep naked. >The ACLU called his treatment “gratuitously harsh” in a letter sent to U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates. And former State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley was forced to resign after publicly calling Manning’s treatment at Quantico “counterproductive and stupid.” http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/08/general-manning-jail-treatment/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/08/general-manning-jai... >The UN special rapporteur on torture has formally accused the US government of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment towards Bradley Manning, the US soldier who was held in solitary confinement for almost a year on suspicion of being the WikiLeaks source. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-...
  - GHFigs 14y ago
    As I said, he's awaiting trial, which has been delayed by both sides for various reasons. One of those reasons has been to gather evidence of the very things you're describing. Personally, I think this is a better way for a justice system to function than treating press reports about what third parties say as primary sources. http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/2012/08/unlawful-pretrial-punishment-motion_10.html http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/2012/08/unlawful-pre...

NathanRice 14y ago

My guess is to get America (and other highly corrupt imperialist nations) to show its true colors for everyone to see. If this WAS a conspiracy, consider this: the folks at Langley aren't stupid, they know that killing Julian or tossing him in Gitmo would only throw a keg of gasoline on the fire. The best way to erase Wikileaks from existence is to make everyone look at Julian as an evil, nasty, vile person unfit to spit upon. What are the most reviled crimes available for this? Setting him up for murder is very tricky and could easily unravel. Child molestation would be great, but this would be even harder than murder. Rape on the other hand is REALLY easy, because people have been convicted of rape with ZERO evidence, in a he-said-she-said dispute. Additionally, even if someone beats rape charges, the aura of it will linger around them basically forever; Julian will ALWAYS be an accused rapist, until the end of time. The analysts at the CIA would have looked this over from a lot of different angles, and known that this would play out as a win pretty much no matter what. What they didn't expect is that powerful conservative civilians in the united states would run their mouths so much about extradition, tribunals and treason that it would give another sovereign nation grounds to protect him.

vacri 14y ago

The US managed to extradite an Australian citizen from his native country, who had never set foot on US soil, over mere copyright infringement. I don't really share your certainty that they couldn't be bothered to extradite someone.