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> It is completely reasonable for Russia to not want NATO on their doorstep. There must be a name for this sort of false argument. What Russia "wants" with re

by derriz 1y ago

> It is completely reasonable for Russia to not want NATO on their doorstep. There must be a name for this sort of false argument. What Russia "wants" with respect to its neighbors is not the problem. It's the large scale ground invasion, indiscriminate killing of civilians, kidnapping children, torturing journalists, shelling cities to rubble. There's absolutely nothing reasonable about Russia's attitude. You don't get to pick what clubs your neighbors decide to willingly join. Does Poland get to demand that Belarus not join CSTO? Does the US get to demand that Canada leave the IPCC?

walrus01 1y ago
The name for it is "repeating very well trod RT and Sputnik talking points". The concept that Ukraine was going to serve as a springboard to a land based invasion of Russia is utterly preposterous. No such amount of NATO-based forces exist anywhere in western europe in any organized concentration of armored vehicles at the brigade or division levels.
jmyeet 1y ago
I want you to imagine a scenario where China forms a military relationship with Canada and/or Mexico and builds a whole bunch of forward operating and missile bases along the US border. How do you think the US would react to that? Would we just accept it? Would the US say "hey, we don't get to decide what clubs our neighbours decide to willingly join"? Of course not. We have evidence of this where the US almost triggerd nuclear war over missiles in Cuba, which again was a response to Jupiter nuclear missiles being stationed in Turkey. So why would Russia be OK with hostile military bases all along its border?
- mopsi 1y ago
  > I want you to imagine a scenario where China forms a military relationship with Canada and/or Mexico and builds a whole bunch of forward operating and missile bases along the US border. How is that relevant? Nobody built any "forward operating and missile bases" in the entire Eastern Europe, and those that used to be in Western Europe have been largely dismantled in the decades that followed the Cold War. What "hostile missile bases" are you talking of? Can you name a single one?
  - jmyeet 1y ago
    If Ukraine joined NATO then, by definition, every military base in Ukraine woudl be a NATO forward operating base on Russia's border. I notice you avoided the hypothetical about China putting military bases along the US border in Mexico and Canada because there's no answer to that: everybody knows we would never accept it. So why should Russia?
    - mopsi 1y ago
      > If Ukraine joined NATO then, by definition, every military base in Ukraine woudl be a NATO forward operating base on Russia's border. That's quite a retreat from "building missile bases along borders". But you're still wrong. NATO's primary role is to provide command structures and planning capabilities to coordinate multinational military responses. Military forces and installations remain under national control and are only made available to NATO command structures when member states voluntarily choose to contribute them to a specific mission. Essentially, NATO functions as a coordination bureau rather than a unified standing army. As for Ukraine specifically, the prospect of joining NATO was shelved by Germany and France in 2008 due to Russian objections. Public support in Ukraine stood at 20-30%, and after a Russian-backed candidate was elected president in 2010, all efforts toward gaining membership were halted. The topic did not resurface until Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.

by derriz 1y ago

walrus01 1y ago

The name for it is "repeating very well trod RT and Sputnik talking points". The concept that Ukraine was going to serve as a springboard to a land based invasion of Russia is utterly preposterous. No such amount of NATO-based forces exist anywhere in western europe in any organized concentration of armored vehicles at the brigade or division levels.

jmyeet 1y ago

I want you to imagine a scenario where China forms a military relationship with Canada and/or Mexico and builds a whole bunch of forward operating and missile bases along the US border. How do you think the US would react to that? Would we just accept it? Would the US say "hey, we don't get to decide what clubs our neighbours decide to willingly join"? Of course not. We have evidence of this where the US almost triggerd nuclear war over missiles in Cuba, which again was a response to Jupiter nuclear missiles being stationed in Turkey. So why would Russia be OK with hostile military bases all along its border?

mopsi 1y ago
> I want you to imagine a scenario where China forms a military relationship with Canada and/or Mexico and builds a whole bunch of forward operating and missile bases along the US border. How is that relevant? Nobody built any "forward operating and missile bases" in the entire Eastern Europe, and those that used to be in Western Europe have been largely dismantled in the decades that followed the Cold War. What "hostile missile bases" are you talking of? Can you name a single one?
- jmyeet 1y ago
  If Ukraine joined NATO then, by definition, every military base in Ukraine woudl be a NATO forward operating base on Russia's border. I notice you avoided the hypothetical about China putting military bases along the US border in Mexico and Canada because there's no answer to that: everybody knows we would never accept it. So why should Russia?
  - mopsi 1y ago
    > If Ukraine joined NATO then, by definition, every military base in Ukraine woudl be a NATO forward operating base on Russia's border. That's quite a retreat from "building missile bases along borders". But you're still wrong. NATO's primary role is to provide command structures and planning capabilities to coordinate multinational military responses. Military forces and installations remain under national control and are only made available to NATO command structures when member states voluntarily choose to contribute them to a specific mission. Essentially, NATO functions as a coordination bureau rather than a unified standing army. As for Ukraine specifically, the prospect of joining NATO was shelved by Germany and France in 2008 due to Russian objections. Public support in Ukraine stood at 20-30%, and after a Russian-backed candidate was elected president in 2010, all efforts toward gaining membership were halted. The topic did not resurface until Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.