5 ms·

Out of curiosity: Why didn't you continue being product manager?

sharkweek 1y ago
I read the comment and had the same question! I did this myself and ended up with a really satisfying 4ish years as a PM. That being said while I was perhaps fairly cynical about why PMs needed to exist before trying the role myself, after being in the role for an extended period of time, fully understand why the role exists now. Of course there can be bad PMs, a good/great one is super worth it.
- whstl 1y ago
  We probably agree with each other! I'm not really cynical, and even before I wasn't! I just think it's a role that's way too critical, and a bad PM can do a lot of damage.
whstl 1y ago
Good question. Mostly politics, I guess? The CTO was about to be fired, so I had nobody to fight for me. The Chief of Product didn't like the optics of a non-PM being more successful than a PM in delivering work. (EDIT: As I said, I delivered from start-to-finish 3 projects that other teams had considered "impossible", mostly because of bad specifications and overengineering, often caused by PM miscommunication. The PMs of other teams REALLY took the blame here: one was fired and sued by the company before I joined, and the other confessed to me he was "asked to leave") As for why I don't change careers, I'm an Engineering Manager and I made twice as much money than a senior PM at my previous organization. I still long for a position where I can be both technical, product and business minded. But I guess the only job where I can do that is as a founder.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  >The Chief of Product didn't like the optics of a non-PM being more successful than a PM in delivering work. Its crabs all the way down: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality That is one big reason I want to remain an IC for my career. There's slightly less ego to deal with and usually more passion among people compared to management. That passion is pretty much the main thing keeping me in this career.
- codingbot3000 1y ago
  Sad to hear this. There seems to be, at least in more enlightened companies, a slight momentum away from the current "classic" org structure of having separate Product and Tech departments staff dysfunctional Scrum teams. Going towards smaller delivery teams and managers who cover product as well as people leadership. The Basecamp folks have been doing this for a while, apparently. This might open another chance for you to use all your skills. (Of course, you cannot find this in any MBA program afaik, they all seem to teach the CPO/CTO Enterprise Slow-Motion Scrum blueprint, so if the tide will turn, it will take a while...) I also find the "classic" org structure quite limiting. I've found that experienced "builders" can take on more senior functions such as people management and product management. No matter if their original speciality was dev, UX, or QA. Today I consider the simple-minded hierarchical structures most companies build, as well as their dysfunctional team structures, a colossal waste of talent and energy. Good luck to you!
  - whstl 1y ago
    Thanks!!! :D I ended up leaving the big enterprise I was and joined a YC startup, now I'm back in my element a bit more. I'm still afraid of it growing too much, but maybe it will be the push I need to try my luck being a founder. I agree with what you said about builders, I really wish there was a path that goes from engineering to engineering+product+business that isn't "founding CTO"! :(

I read the comment and had the same question! I did this myself and ended up with a really satisfying 4ish years as a PM. That being said while I was perhaps fairly cynical about why PMs needed to exist before trying the role myself, after being in the role for an extended period of time, fully understand why the role exists now. Of course there can be bad PMs, a good/great one is super worth it.

whstl 1y ago
We probably agree with each other! I'm not really cynical, and even before I wasn't! I just think it's a role that's way too critical, and a bad PM can do a lot of damage.

whstl 1y ago

Good question. Mostly politics, I guess? The CTO was about to be fired, so I had nobody to fight for me. The Chief of Product didn't like the optics of a non-PM being more successful than a PM in delivering work. (EDIT: As I said, I delivered from start-to-finish 3 projects that other teams had considered "impossible", mostly because of bad specifications and overengineering, often caused by PM miscommunication. The PMs of other teams REALLY took the blame here: one was fired and sued by the company before I joined, and the other confessed to me he was "asked to leave") As for why I don't change careers, I'm an Engineering Manager and I made twice as much money than a senior PM at my previous organization. I still long for a position where I can be both technical, product and business minded. But I guess the only job where I can do that is as a founder.

johnnyanmac 1y ago
>The Chief of Product didn't like the optics of a non-PM being more successful than a PM in delivering work. Its crabs all the way down: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality That is one big reason I want to remain an IC for my career. There's slightly less ego to deal with and usually more passion among people compared to management. That passion is pretty much the main thing keeping me in this career.
codingbot3000 1y ago
Sad to hear this. There seems to be, at least in more enlightened companies, a slight momentum away from the current "classic" org structure of having separate Product and Tech departments staff dysfunctional Scrum teams. Going towards smaller delivery teams and managers who cover product as well as people leadership. The Basecamp folks have been doing this for a while, apparently. This might open another chance for you to use all your skills. (Of course, you cannot find this in any MBA program afaik, they all seem to teach the CPO/CTO Enterprise Slow-Motion Scrum blueprint, so if the tide will turn, it will take a while...) I also find the "classic" org structure quite limiting. I've found that experienced "builders" can take on more senior functions such as people management and product management. No matter if their original speciality was dev, UX, or QA. Today I consider the simple-minded hierarchical structures most companies build, as well as their dysfunctional team structures, a colossal waste of talent and energy. Good luck to you!
- whstl 1y ago
  Thanks!!! :D I ended up leaving the big enterprise I was and joined a YC startup, now I'm back in my element a bit more. I'm still afraid of it growing too much, but maybe it will be the push I need to try my luck being a founder. I agree with what you said about builders, I really wish there was a path that goes from engineering to engineering+product+business that isn't "founding CTO"! :(