4 ms·

I don't write negative comments, but this was impossible to not respond to. Honestly, you sound less like you're precious and more like you're pretentious. Whi

by borski 14y ago

I don't write negative comments, but this was impossible to not respond to. Honestly, you sound less like you're precious and more like you're pretentious. While I'm very happy for you receiving job offers all the time (congratulations!), there are definitely reasons for an engineer to take an interview; in particular, falling in love with what a company stands for. The idea that all engineers are mercenaries ready to work for anyone and sell themselves to the highest bidder is an aged one, and one I had hoped was no longer true. If I fell in love with a company (as has happened in the past), I'd certainly be willing to jump through some hoops to "prove" myself to them - if that means going through an interview process so they can fall in love with me as much as I have with them, so be it. When I see a woman I like, I don't go up and tell her about all the other women that want to sleep with me. Instead, I flirt, I jump through some hoops, make her jump through some of mine, and ultimately establish a strong connection. Or not; that happens too. Same goes for finding work.

atirip 14y ago
You didn't read the story and the comment you responded, did you? Because your example with "woman I like" is not valid. There was no woman _you_ liked. There was woman who liked _you_ (recruiter e-mailed). And that _woman_ expressed desire to sleep with _you_. And after that, _you_ strongly advocated to start flirting and "jumping through some hoops" with that woman. May I ask why?
- borski 14y ago
  I read both. There wasn't a woman who expressed desire to sleep with me. There was a woman who made eyes at me from across the bar. That's it. His immediate response was him walking over and starting the conversation. I don't know about you, but I'm not lucky enough that every time a woman makes eyes at me from across the room it is, by definition, in the context of "Let's go to my hotel room."
noomerikal 14y ago
How could you fall in love with a company without working for them? Isn't that synonymous with the high school scenario of falling in love with the girl that you never said hello to?
- marcusf 14y ago
  You can love their product, and what they publicly stand for. Happened to me and didn't feel like high school.
- borski 14y ago
  I love Stripe. I love their product so much, in fact, that if I didn't love my own company more (and significantly more), I'd try to work for them - I'd jump through any hoops. So yes, despite never having worked for Stripe, I can tell given everything I've read about their culture, using their product, etc. that we'd get along swell. It's a very similar culture to our company, in fact.
  - drewcrawford 14y ago
    I love Apple's products, but their culture of secrecy is not a good fit for me at all. I love Square's product, but the way they write their tests is totally perpendicular to my philosophy, and would totally drive me up the wall. I love Square Enix's products, but the life of a game developer would suck all of the fun out of it for me. The whole thing is subjective, of course, but I don't understand why product fit would necessarily imply cultural fit, and particularly for my subjective criteria, the fit seems poor. In fact, I can think of many products that I at least moderately dislike that by all accounts have really fantastic people that I would get along great with.
    - throwa 14y ago
      Many developers love Apple and their products and they create apps that makes Apple smile to the bank. Apple does not return the love, hence they commoditize apps and make building a business off apps, a race to the bottom for $1.99 or free as a result, many indie developer are getting broke right now. Very sadly, the same commoditize apps, help make iphone and ipad appealing to consumers, which in turn gives Apple the leverage to sell them for $500 or more because it is a hardware or device company and software or your app is only a complement to the hardware. Where is the returned love from Apple. Be pragmatic, even while you choose to love an entity like Apple, that lacks capacity to return the love and will always act in self interest. Always search to see if your love is reciprocated by the person or organization you are in love with, because that is your self interest. Self love gives us the capacity to love others. Self love encompasses self interest among other things. If Apple acts only in self interest, why do developers choose to act out of love aka blind fan boy-ism that is detrimental to their business (indie app development)? http://andrewchen.co/2012/08/15/mobile-app-startups-are-failing-like-its-1999/ http://andrewchen.co/2012/08/15/mobile-app-startups-are-fail... http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/going-broke-with-success-how-an-app-with-200000-downloads-led-to-devel http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/going-broke...
gaius 14y ago
Two days vacation burned is a lot of commitment up front from a candidate. Maybe it's intended to act as a filter.
- aneth4 14y ago
  I'd guess any engineer desperate enough to go through a two day interview process is delusionally obsessed, incompetent, or has no experience worthy of reference. Some filter.
- borski 14y ago
  Fair point. Two days is a long time - I've never done more than one.
drewcrawford 14y ago
> in particular, falling in love with what a company stands for People can purport to stand for just about anything, but unless there is a track record there of standing up for [principle] in the face of [adversity], it's just a politically expedient claim. There are wonderful exceptions, but most ordinary people and most ordinary companies don't deduce their day-to-day behavior from first-order principles, and at any rate, companies the age of AirBnB don't have the track record to enable an observer to distinguish principles from marketing claims. > The idea that all engineers are mercenaries ready to work for anyone and sell themselves to the highest bidder is an aged one, and one I had hoped was no longer true. This is not my view; nobody is saying take the highest offer, and I have said absolutely nothing about money at all. My question is: why do engineers participate in technical interviews? Insofar as I understand it, your response explains why an engineer might (I would say improperly) create a post-hoc rationalization and "fall in love" with the company after-the-fact, but under your own logic it doesn't explain why the engineer takes two days off to go in the first place. Assuming that "falling in love" is even something you can do in two days, the candidate hasn't done it at the point this decision is made.
- borski 14y ago
  Thanks for clarifying. I suppose my point boils down to the following: 1) If you already love a company pre-interview (which can happen, by the actions of the company), then it makes perfect sense to take an interview. Even in the short lifespan of most startups, there can be enough action and culture shown that you can truly desire to work there / "fall in love." 2) Sometimes it's worth taking an interview to find out more information on both sides - a phone interview is useful, but as you say, IRL conversations are far more useful for the things you can't see on paper or hear over the phone. I'm not saying AirBnB did a great job with this - they clearly didn't - but that doesn't make all interviews useless. Without them, a lot of "bad fit" hires would be made.
  - throwa 14y ago
    It is okay to love a company but note that the company never falls in love with you as an employee. They always do what is in their best interest, interpret as what is in the interest of the major share holders and not employees or minor share holders. That is why even when you kill your self for a product launch or their overall success, they still don't hesitate to give you the sack if it is required for something like cutting cost not to talk of when major adversity comes. My point is be pragmatic and not too emotional with loving a company especially if you are not a founder or major share holder. Many people have been burnt by loving someone or an organization that does not have capacity to return that love.

by borski 14y ago

atirip 14y ago

You didn't read the story and the comment you responded, did you? Because your example with "woman I like" is not valid. There was no woman _you_ liked. There was woman who liked _you_ (recruiter e-mailed). And that _woman_ expressed desire to sleep with _you_. And after that, _you_ strongly advocated to start flirting and "jumping through some hoops" with that woman. May I ask why?

borski 14y ago
I read both. There wasn't a woman who expressed desire to sleep with me. There was a woman who made eyes at me from across the bar. That's it. His immediate response was him walking over and starting the conversation. I don't know about you, but I'm not lucky enough that every time a woman makes eyes at me from across the room it is, by definition, in the context of "Let's go to my hotel room."

noomerikal 14y ago

How could you fall in love with a company without working for them? Isn't that synonymous with the high school scenario of falling in love with the girl that you never said hello to?

marcusf 14y ago
You can love their product, and what they publicly stand for. Happened to me and didn't feel like high school.
borski 14y ago
I love Stripe. I love their product so much, in fact, that if I didn't love my own company more (and significantly more), I'd try to work for them - I'd jump through any hoops. So yes, despite never having worked for Stripe, I can tell given everything I've read about their culture, using their product, etc. that we'd get along swell. It's a very similar culture to our company, in fact.
- drewcrawford 14y ago
  I love Apple's products, but their culture of secrecy is not a good fit for me at all. I love Square's product, but the way they write their tests is totally perpendicular to my philosophy, and would totally drive me up the wall. I love Square Enix's products, but the life of a game developer would suck all of the fun out of it for me. The whole thing is subjective, of course, but I don't understand why product fit would necessarily imply cultural fit, and particularly for my subjective criteria, the fit seems poor. In fact, I can think of many products that I at least moderately dislike that by all accounts have really fantastic people that I would get along great with.
  - throwa 14y ago
    Many developers love Apple and their products and they create apps that makes Apple smile to the bank. Apple does not return the love, hence they commoditize apps and make building a business off apps, a race to the bottom for $1.99 or free as a result, many indie developer are getting broke right now. Very sadly, the same commoditize apps, help make iphone and ipad appealing to consumers, which in turn gives Apple the leverage to sell them for $500 or more because it is a hardware or device company and software or your app is only a complement to the hardware. Where is the returned love from Apple. Be pragmatic, even while you choose to love an entity like Apple, that lacks capacity to return the love and will always act in self interest. Always search to see if your love is reciprocated by the person or organization you are in love with, because that is your self interest. Self love gives us the capacity to love others. Self love encompasses self interest among other things. If Apple acts only in self interest, why do developers choose to act out of love aka blind fan boy-ism that is detrimental to their business (indie app development)? http://andrewchen.co/2012/08/15/mobile-app-startups-are-failing-like-its-1999/ http://andrewchen.co/2012/08/15/mobile-app-startups-are-fail... http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/going-broke-with-success-how-an-app-with-200000-downloads-led-to-devel http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/going-broke...

gaius 14y ago

Two days vacation burned is a lot of commitment up front from a candidate. Maybe it's intended to act as a filter.

aneth4 14y ago
I'd guess any engineer desperate enough to go through a two day interview process is delusionally obsessed, incompetent, or has no experience worthy of reference. Some filter.
borski 14y ago
Fair point. Two days is a long time - I've never done more than one.

drewcrawford 14y ago

> in particular, falling in love with what a company stands for People can purport to stand for just about anything, but unless there is a track record there of standing up for [principle] in the face of [adversity], it's just a politically expedient claim. There are wonderful exceptions, but most ordinary people and most ordinary companies don't deduce their day-to-day behavior from first-order principles, and at any rate, companies the age of AirBnB don't have the track record to enable an observer to distinguish principles from marketing claims. > The idea that all engineers are mercenaries ready to work for anyone and sell themselves to the highest bidder is an aged one, and one I had hoped was no longer true. This is not my view; nobody is saying take the highest offer, and I have said absolutely nothing about money at all. My question is: why do engineers participate in technical interviews? Insofar as I understand it, your response explains why an engineer might (I would say improperly) create a post-hoc rationalization and "fall in love" with the company after-the-fact, but under your own logic it doesn't explain why the engineer takes two days off to go in the first place. Assuming that "falling in love" is even something you can do in two days, the candidate hasn't done it at the point this decision is made.

borski 14y ago
Thanks for clarifying. I suppose my point boils down to the following: 1) If you already love a company pre-interview (which can happen, by the actions of the company), then it makes perfect sense to take an interview. Even in the short lifespan of most startups, there can be enough action and culture shown that you can truly desire to work there / "fall in love." 2) Sometimes it's worth taking an interview to find out more information on both sides - a phone interview is useful, but as you say, IRL conversations are far more useful for the things you can't see on paper or hear over the phone. I'm not saying AirBnB did a great job with this - they clearly didn't - but that doesn't make all interviews useless. Without them, a lot of "bad fit" hires would be made.
- throwa 14y ago
  It is okay to love a company but note that the company never falls in love with you as an employee. They always do what is in their best interest, interpret as what is in the interest of the major share holders and not employees or minor share holders. That is why even when you kill your self for a product launch or their overall success, they still don't hesitate to give you the sack if it is required for something like cutting cost not to talk of when major adversity comes. My point is be pragmatic and not too emotional with loving a company especially if you are not a founder or major share holder. Many people have been burnt by loving someone or an organization that does not have capacity to return that love.