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The thing is: we should not need standalone editors just to use AI coding agents. They could be just plugins, but Microsoft does not want to bend the plugin API

The thing is: we should not need standalone editors just to use AI coding agents. They could be just plugins, but Microsoft does not want to bend the plugin API enough for that. Windsurf has a "plugin edition" for JetBrains IDEs that works really, really well[0] (they also have a VSCode plugin[1] but it's lacking in comparison). However, given that JetBrains also have their own AI offering[2], I'm not sure how long that will last too... [0] https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/20540-windsurf-plugin-formerly-codeium-for-python-js-java-go-- https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/20540-windsurf-plugin-f... [1] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Codeium.codeium https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Codeium.... [2] https://www.jetbrains.com/ai/ https://www.jetbrains.com/ai/

owendarko 1y ago
There are already a bunch of open source, free, and popular "AI coding agent" extensions for VS Code: 1) Cline (1.4mil downloads) 2) Roo Code (a fork of Cline, 450k downloads) Still a drop in the bucket compared to Cursor in terms of # of users, but they're growing pretty fast. Disclaimer: I maintain Kilo Code, which competes with 1) and 2) so I'm pretty familiar with this space/the growth patterns.
- htrp 1y ago
  How are you differentiating from the cline/roo's of the world?
  - boleary-gl 1y ago
    Our plan is to be a superset of Cline and Roo's features (we already have all the major features from both) [0] We also have our own provider, which means no need to bring your own API keys (you can if you like, but it is batteries included by default) and we're not charging anything on top of the API pricing. Instead of monetizing on individual developers, we want it to be free for them and make money eventually off enterprise contracts [1] [0]: https://blog.kilocode.ai/p/roo-or-cline-were-building-a-superset https://blog.kilocode.ai/p/roo-or-cline-were-building-a-supe... [1]: https://kilocode.ai https://kilocode.ai
    - alasano 1y ago
      I can't find any reference to Cline/Roo charging anything on top of API pricing. Not sure how they'd do it considering you bring your own API keys. Can you link me to a resource?
      - oofbaroomf 1y ago
        GP didn't say Cline/Roo charged anything on top.
        alasano 1y ago
        The comparison table on the kilo site says "OpenRouter without 5% markup" and only puts a checkbox next to kilo.
        jychang 1y ago
        Roo/Cline doesn't offer Openrouter, markup or not.
        theturtletalks 1y ago
        You can most definitely use Openrouter with Roo and Cline. Openrouter leaderboards are dominated by these 2 apps.
        jychang 1y ago
        But they don't OFFER Openrouter a paid product... You cannot give roo/cline dollars and get openrouter api access.
        boleary-gl 1y ago
        Yes - with our built-in provider, we provide all the models that OpenRouter provides but without OpenRouter's 5% markup. We provide them at cost (the AI provider cost)
    - 1y ago
- tomrod 1y ago
  Continue.dev as well
  - nick__m 1y ago
    I happy to know that I am not the only one that know about continue.
    - wkat4242 1y ago
      It's used a lot by self hosters like myself because you can modify their plugin to talk to your local LLM.
      - rizky05 1y ago
        roo and cline also can use local llm
        wkat4242 1y ago
        Ah thanks I might look at those too then. I'm not coding very much anyway though.
- dhc02 1y ago
  I am constantly surprised how seldom aider is mentioned in threads like this. I understand that it's not directly integrated into the editor, but the "editor + parallel CLI tool chain" paradigm feels so natural to me because we drop to terminal for so many other parts of building software. If you haven't tried it (particularly the architect/editor modality), it's worth a couple of hours of experimenting.
  - PantaloonFlames 1y ago
    Aider doesn’t provide any interface that’s integrated into the editor tool, as you point out. That might be true for other similar side-by-side tools that I am not aware of. But, if you tell aider to watch your files, you can drop a specially formatted comment into your file, and aider will see that and use it as a prompt. So the integration is sort of “implicit”. Which sounds kinda like the cheap way to go, in comparison to the current brand name tools that have their own chat boxes, dropdowns with mode selectors (ask, edit, agent), and so on. But look further into the future and an ambient interface is probably where we end up. Something where the Ai agent is just watching what you do, maybe even watching your eyes and seeing what you’re attending to, and then harmonizing its attention to what you are attending to. But I dunno, i’m just guessing
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - senko 1y ago
    Tight editor integration means better diffs (right in your editor), easier context manager, and other convenience features that CLI-only tools can't have. This doesn't mean that aider, claude code, etc. aren't very good tools, but it does make sense to distinguish between built-in tools vs external ones. A similar non-AI example is debugging or linting: IDE integration makes it much easier than using a separate tool.
Frotag 1y ago
> Microsoft does not want to bend the plugin API enough for that. What doesn't the current API allow plugins to do? I'm guessing custom UI stuff that lives outside a panel?
no_wizard 1y ago
I suspect JetBrains will never limit this. I've yet to recall anything in the past where they have done this even when they have a similar offering. In fact, their own AI extension appears to be pluggable in and of itself. I think they see the value in being easy to adapt different AI solutions to rather than trying to only provide their own.
- nicce 1y ago
  JetBrain's main business model depends on buying the editor, and if users still see the overall editor better, any AI plugin support will likely just increase the sales.
  - joseangel_sc 1y ago
    100% i like some thinks cursor gives me, but i’m to invested in how to use the navigation inside pycharm, i don’t wanna give up that
silverwind 1y ago
> They could be just plugins No, they should be LSPs so that they can be integrated into any editor, not just VSCode.
- sanderjd 1y ago
  They should do this, but this is not the entirety of what they do.
- forrestthewoods 1y ago
  LSP is amazing but also kinda sucks balls. It’s impossible to run VSCode without a million pops in the corner with a million extension errors. It’s so bad. And autocomplete is the least interesting thing an LLM can do. Cursor’s UX isn’t the end game but has lots great features. The ideal UX is still being worked out. It’s good that different people are building tools to try different ideas.
- rs186 1y ago
  Microsoft has been dragging their feet when it comes to updating the LSP spec. Many of their Copilot features are done in VSCode, in fact using private APIs that are not accessible to other extensions. I am all for everyone adopting LSP, but the reality is harsh.
iambateman 1y ago
Is windsurf essentially the same as cursor? I didn’t realize there was something similar for JetBrains but if it’s a cursor-equivalent for JB that would be wonderful.
- macrolime 1y ago
  Yes
sanderjd 1y ago
I haven't found any of the jetbrains options (including Windsurf) nearly as satisfying to use as Cursor. But YMMV I guess!

owendarko 1y ago

There are already a bunch of open source, free, and popular "AI coding agent" extensions for VS Code: 1) Cline (1.4mil downloads) 2) Roo Code (a fork of Cline, 450k downloads) Still a drop in the bucket compared to Cursor in terms of # of users, but they're growing pretty fast. Disclaimer: I maintain Kilo Code, which competes with 1) and 2) so I'm pretty familiar with this space/the growth patterns.

htrp 1y ago
How are you differentiating from the cline/roo's of the world?
- boleary-gl 1y ago
  Our plan is to be a superset of Cline and Roo's features (we already have all the major features from both) [0] We also have our own provider, which means no need to bring your own API keys (you can if you like, but it is batteries included by default) and we're not charging anything on top of the API pricing. Instead of monetizing on individual developers, we want it to be free for them and make money eventually off enterprise contracts [1] [0]: https://blog.kilocode.ai/p/roo-or-cline-were-building-a-superset https://blog.kilocode.ai/p/roo-or-cline-were-building-a-supe... [1]: https://kilocode.ai https://kilocode.ai
  - alasano 1y ago
    I can't find any reference to Cline/Roo charging anything on top of API pricing. Not sure how they'd do it considering you bring your own API keys. Can you link me to a resource?
    - oofbaroomf 1y ago
      GP didn't say Cline/Roo charged anything on top.
      - alasano 1y ago
        The comparison table on the kilo site says "OpenRouter without 5% markup" and only puts a checkbox next to kilo.
        jychang 1y ago
        Roo/Cline doesn't offer Openrouter, markup or not.
        theturtletalks 1y ago
        You can most definitely use Openrouter with Roo and Cline. Openrouter leaderboards are dominated by these 2 apps.
        jychang 1y ago
        But they don't OFFER Openrouter a paid product... You cannot give roo/cline dollars and get openrouter api access.
        boleary-gl 1y ago
        Yes - with our built-in provider, we provide all the models that OpenRouter provides but without OpenRouter's 5% markup. We provide them at cost (the AI provider cost)
  - 1y ago
tomrod 1y ago
Continue.dev as well
- nick__m 1y ago
  I happy to know that I am not the only one that know about continue.
  - wkat4242 1y ago
    It's used a lot by self hosters like myself because you can modify their plugin to talk to your local LLM.
    - rizky05 1y ago
      roo and cline also can use local llm
      - wkat4242 1y ago
        Ah thanks I might look at those too then. I'm not coding very much anyway though.
dhc02 1y ago
I am constantly surprised how seldom aider is mentioned in threads like this. I understand that it's not directly integrated into the editor, but the "editor + parallel CLI tool chain" paradigm feels so natural to me because we drop to terminal for so many other parts of building software. If you haven't tried it (particularly the architect/editor modality), it's worth a couple of hours of experimenting.
- PantaloonFlames 1y ago
  Aider doesn’t provide any interface that’s integrated into the editor tool, as you point out. That might be true for other similar side-by-side tools that I am not aware of. But, if you tell aider to watch your files, you can drop a specially formatted comment into your file, and aider will see that and use it as a prompt. So the integration is sort of “implicit”. Which sounds kinda like the cheap way to go, in comparison to the current brand name tools that have their own chat boxes, dropdowns with mode selectors (ask, edit, agent), and so on. But look further into the future and an ambient interface is probably where we end up. Something where the Ai agent is just watching what you do, maybe even watching your eyes and seeing what you’re attending to, and then harmonizing its attention to what you are attending to. But I dunno, i’m just guessing
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- senko 1y ago
  Tight editor integration means better diffs (right in your editor), easier context manager, and other convenience features that CLI-only tools can't have. This doesn't mean that aider, claude code, etc. aren't very good tools, but it does make sense to distinguish between built-in tools vs external ones. A similar non-AI example is debugging or linting: IDE integration makes it much easier than using a separate tool.

Frotag 1y ago

> Microsoft does not want to bend the plugin API enough for that. What doesn't the current API allow plugins to do? I'm guessing custom UI stuff that lives outside a panel?

no_wizard 1y ago

I suspect JetBrains will never limit this. I've yet to recall anything in the past where they have done this even when they have a similar offering. In fact, their own AI extension appears to be pluggable in and of itself. I think they see the value in being easy to adapt different AI solutions to rather than trying to only provide their own.

nicce 1y ago
JetBrain's main business model depends on buying the editor, and if users still see the overall editor better, any AI plugin support will likely just increase the sales.
- joseangel_sc 1y ago
  100% i like some thinks cursor gives me, but i’m to invested in how to use the navigation inside pycharm, i don’t wanna give up that

silverwind 1y ago

> They could be just plugins No, they should be LSPs so that they can be integrated into any editor, not just VSCode.

sanderjd 1y ago
They should do this, but this is not the entirety of what they do.
forrestthewoods 1y ago
LSP is amazing but also kinda sucks balls. It’s impossible to run VSCode without a million pops in the corner with a million extension errors. It’s so bad. And autocomplete is the least interesting thing an LLM can do. Cursor’s UX isn’t the end game but has lots great features. The ideal UX is still being worked out. It’s good that different people are building tools to try different ideas.
rs186 1y ago
Microsoft has been dragging their feet when it comes to updating the LSP spec. Many of their Copilot features are done in VSCode, in fact using private APIs that are not accessible to other extensions. I am all for everyone adopting LSP, but the reality is harsh.

iambateman 1y ago

Is windsurf essentially the same as cursor? I didn’t realize there was something similar for JetBrains but if it’s a cursor-equivalent for JB that would be wonderful.

macrolime 1y ago
Yes

sanderjd 1y ago

I haven't found any of the jetbrains options (including Windsurf) nearly as satisfying to use as Cursor. But YMMV I guess!