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I disagree with roughtly all of this. First of all, 'ß' was a ligature -- a long time ago. It is a letter today. Disassembling it according to its original c
by beeforpork 1y ago
I disagree with roughtly all of this.
First of all, 'ß' was a ligature -- a long time ago. It is a letter today. Disassembling it according to its original construction makes no sense today for any kind of argument about typesetting or Unicode. Further, 'ſ' is not used today in German at all, except for meta discussions like this or to stress how things used to be spelled. It makes no sense to mention it unless you are talking about font design or historic use of German (and other languages, for that matter).
Also, if you do mention it for the sake of talking about font design, in Latin fonts, 'ſs' is actually the basis for the design of 'ß', not 'ſz' -- that was mainly done in Blackletter/Fraktur when the 'z' looked different, maybe a bit like 'ʒ' (I used Unicode's'ezh' here hoping it looks right) so that old style 'ß' looks like a ligature of 'ſʒ'. This can still be seen occasionally, e.g., on Berlin street name signs. It is obsolete for most fonts today (although I quite like it).
Moreover, there is an upper case letter for 'ß': 'ẞ'. And it has existed in fine typology way before being adopted into Unicode. Actually, it's existence was probably the reason why it is now in Unicode. The official German rules are now: either use 'SS' or 'ẞ' for uppercase 'ß'. Most Germans probably do not even know that 'ẞ' exists as a choice today, although it was used on 'DER GROẞE DUDEN' even before Unicode existed.
And finally, how a glyph is designed is not necessarily decided on whether historic parts of an ancient ligature had upper case variants. So that 'ſ' has no upper case equivalent is irrelevant for both Unicode and type design.
But as a font designer or anything else, you can protest. No problem. Everyone has the right to protest. But please don't spill the Internet with wrong information, as there is enough of it already.
And I don't think 'SS'<->'ß' is similar to the Turkish 'I with/without dot' problem, because the default Unicode mapping for 'ß' is correct in all languages, while the Turkish (and also Azerbaijani) problem is correct or broken depending on language setting. This is way more problematic because an assumed universal equivalence does not hold. And you need to carefully distinguish whether a string is language specific or not, e.g., path names or IDs in data bases, etc.
- yorwba 1y agoIndeed, the original Unicode inclusion request justifies the need for an encoding for the character by referencing prior usage going back all the way to 1879: https://www.unicode.org/wg2/docs/n3227.pdf https://www.unicode.org/wg2/docs/n3227.pdf It may be a typographical abomination, but it's an intentional representation of that particular typographical abomination, just as the ox head in "A" intentionally has its horns pointing down.
- alexey-salmin 1y ago> And I don't think 'SS'<->'ß' is similar to the Turkish 'I with/without dot' problem, because the default Unicode mapping for 'ß' is correct in all languages, while the Turkish (and also Azerbaijani) problem is correct or broken depending on language setting. I don't know if this counts as "correct" but it's still very confusing. >>> "ß".upper() 'SS' >>> "ß".upper().lower() 'ss' >>> "ẞ".lower() 'ß' >>> "ẞ".lower().upper() 'SS' >>> "ẞ".lower().upper().lower() 'ss'
- beeforpork 1y agoYes, it's definitely weird. But it is independent of locale, so any programmer has a change to notice this regardless of language setting, instead of their app failing only once it is used by someone from Turkey or Azerbaijan.
- froh 1y ago"tja". now Unicode philosophers have to ponder a breaking change vs introducing a new, duplicate ß code point LATIN SMALL LETTER SHARP S WITH CAPITAL SHARP S which as upper case has encoded the proper ẞ two red buttons meme here...