4 ms·

>history is littered with examples of capitalists replacing labour with automation and using any productivity gains of new technology to push salaries lower No

>history is littered with examples of capitalists replacing labour with automation and using any productivity gains of new technology to push salaries lower Nonsense. We make far, far more than people did in the past entirely because of the productivity gains from automation. The industrial revolution led to the biggest increase in quality of life in history, not in spite of but because it automated 90% of jobs. Without it we'd all still be subsistence farmers.

bluefirebrand 1y ago
> Nonsense. We make far, far more than people did in the past entirely because of the productivity gains from automation. "We" were never subsistence farmers, our ancestors were I'm talking about real changes that have happened in our actual lifetimes. In our actual lifetimes we have watched wages stagnate for decades, pur purchasing power is dramatically lower than our parents. In order to afford even remotely close to the same standard of living as our parents had, we have to go into much larger amounts of debt We have watched jobs move overseas as automation lowered the skill requirements so that anyone could perform them, so we sought the cheapest possible labour to do them We have watched wealthy countries shift from higher paying production economies into lower paying service economies We have watched the wealth gap widen as the rich get richer the poor get poorer and the middle class shrinks. Some of the shrinking middle class moved up, but most moved down The fact is that automation is disruptive, which is great for markets but bad for people who are relying on consistency. Which is most people
- astrange 1y ago
  > In our actual lifetimes we have watched wages stagnate for decades, pur purchasing power is dramatically lower than our parents. This graph is going up. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N The reason you believe otherwise is that people on social media think they're only allowed to say untrue negative things about the economy, because if they ever say anything positive it'd be disrespectful to poor people. > We have watched wealthy countries shift from higher paying production economies into lower paying service economies Service work is higher paying, which is why factory workers try to get their children educated enough to do it. > We have watched the wealth gap widen as the rich get richer the poor get poorer and the middle class shrinks. Some of the shrinking middle class moved up, but most moved down They mostly moved up. But notice this graph is positive for every group. https://realtimeinequality.org/?id=wealth&wealthend=03012023&wealthfreq=monthly&wealthgroups=Middle%2040%25&wealthgroups=Top%2010%25&wealthgroups=Top%201%25&wealthgroups=Bottom%2050%25&wealthgroups=Top%200.01%25&wealthgroups=Top%200.1%25&wealthstart=01011976&wealthtype=wealth&wealthunit=Adults&wealthy=growth https://realtimeinequality.org/?id=wealth&wealthend=03012023...
  - bluefirebrand 1y ago
    > Service work is higher paying, which is why factory workers try to get their children educated enough to do it You think service workers at a fast food restaurant or working the till at Walmart are higher paid than Factory workers? > They mostly moved up. But notice this graph is positive for every group. The reason it is positive for (almost) every group is because it isn't measuring anything meaningful Salaries may have nominally gone up but this is clearly not weighing the cost of living into the equation
    - astrange 1y ago
      > You think service workers at a fast food restaurant or working the till at Walmart are higher paid than Factory workers? Fast food workers aren't service-economy workers, they're making burgers back there. More importantly, factory work destroys your body and email jobs don't, so whether or not it's high earning at the start… it isn't forever. > Salaries may have nominally gone up but this is clearly not weighing the cost of living into the equation That's not a salary chart. The income chart I did post is adjusted for cost of living (that's what "real" means). Also see https://www.epi.org/blog/wage-growth-since-1979-has-not-been-stagnant-but-it-has-definitely-been-suppressed/ https://www.epi.org/blog/wage-growth-since-1979-has-not-been...
      - bluefirebrand 1y ago
        > Fast food workers aren't service-economy workers, they're making burgers back there. What exactly do you consider the "service industry" if you don't consider food services (like restaurants and fast food) as part of it? I suspect we have very different ideas of what "service industry" means > Also see https://www.epi.org/blog/wage-growth-since-1979-has-not-been https://www.epi.org/blog/wage-growth-since-1979-has-not-been.. Did you even read the whole thing? ```Dropping “wage stagnation” as a descriptive term for the full post-1979 period doesn’t mean we think the wage problem for American workers has been solved. Wage growth in the post-1979 period has been slow and unequal, largely as a result of intentional policy decisions. This policy-induced wage suppression has stifled growth in living standards and generated inequality. The last five years saw rapid and welcome progress reversing some of these trends—but it will take a long time to heal the previous damage, even if the post-2019 momentum can be sustained, which looks very unlikely at the moment.``` Admitting there is a problem but saying "it isn't stagnation" is just splitting hairs. "Wage growth has been slow and unequal, but it isn't stagnation!" "policy-induced wage suppression has stifled growth in living standards and generated inequality" there was wage suppression but it's not stagnation! What a stupid article.

bluefirebrand 1y ago

> Nonsense. We make far, far more than people did in the past entirely because of the productivity gains from automation. "We" were never subsistence farmers, our ancestors were I'm talking about real changes that have happened in our actual lifetimes. In our actual lifetimes we have watched wages stagnate for decades, pur purchasing power is dramatically lower than our parents. In order to afford even remotely close to the same standard of living as our parents had, we have to go into much larger amounts of debt We have watched jobs move overseas as automation lowered the skill requirements so that anyone could perform them, so we sought the cheapest possible labour to do them We have watched wealthy countries shift from higher paying production economies into lower paying service economies We have watched the wealth gap widen as the rich get richer the poor get poorer and the middle class shrinks. Some of the shrinking middle class moved up, but most moved down The fact is that automation is disruptive, which is great for markets but bad for people who are relying on consistency. Which is most people

astrange 1y ago
> In our actual lifetimes we have watched wages stagnate for decades, pur purchasing power is dramatically lower than our parents. This graph is going up. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N The reason you believe otherwise is that people on social media think they're only allowed to say untrue negative things about the economy, because if they ever say anything positive it'd be disrespectful to poor people. > We have watched wealthy countries shift from higher paying production economies into lower paying service economies Service work is higher paying, which is why factory workers try to get their children educated enough to do it. > We have watched the wealth gap widen as the rich get richer the poor get poorer and the middle class shrinks. Some of the shrinking middle class moved up, but most moved down They mostly moved up. But notice this graph is positive for every group. https://realtimeinequality.org/?id=wealth&wealthend=03012023&wealthfreq=monthly&wealthgroups=Middle%2040%25&wealthgroups=Top%2010%25&wealthgroups=Top%201%25&wealthgroups=Bottom%2050%25&wealthgroups=Top%200.01%25&wealthgroups=Top%200.1%25&wealthstart=01011976&wealthtype=wealth&wealthunit=Adults&wealthy=growth https://realtimeinequality.org/?id=wealth&wealthend=03012023...
- bluefirebrand 1y ago
  > Service work is higher paying, which is why factory workers try to get their children educated enough to do it You think service workers at a fast food restaurant or working the till at Walmart are higher paid than Factory workers? > They mostly moved up. But notice this graph is positive for every group. The reason it is positive for (almost) every group is because it isn't measuring anything meaningful Salaries may have nominally gone up but this is clearly not weighing the cost of living into the equation
  - astrange 1y ago
    > You think service workers at a fast food restaurant or working the till at Walmart are higher paid than Factory workers? Fast food workers aren't service-economy workers, they're making burgers back there. More importantly, factory work destroys your body and email jobs don't, so whether or not it's high earning at the start… it isn't forever. > Salaries may have nominally gone up but this is clearly not weighing the cost of living into the equation That's not a salary chart. The income chart I did post is adjusted for cost of living (that's what "real" means). Also see https://www.epi.org/blog/wage-growth-since-1979-has-not-been-stagnant-but-it-has-definitely-been-suppressed/ https://www.epi.org/blog/wage-growth-since-1979-has-not-been...
    - bluefirebrand 1y ago
      > Fast food workers aren't service-economy workers, they're making burgers back there. What exactly do you consider the "service industry" if you don't consider food services (like restaurants and fast food) as part of it? I suspect we have very different ideas of what "service industry" means > Also see https://www.epi.org/blog/wage-growth-since-1979-has-not-been https://www.epi.org/blog/wage-growth-since-1979-has-not-been.. Did you even read the whole thing? ```Dropping “wage stagnation” as a descriptive term for the full post-1979 period doesn’t mean we think the wage problem for American workers has been solved. Wage growth in the post-1979 period has been slow and unequal, largely as a result of intentional policy decisions. This policy-induced wage suppression has stifled growth in living standards and generated inequality. The last five years saw rapid and welcome progress reversing some of these trends—but it will take a long time to heal the previous damage, even if the post-2019 momentum can be sustained, which looks very unlikely at the moment.``` Admitting there is a problem but saying "it isn't stagnation" is just splitting hairs. "Wage growth has been slow and unequal, but it isn't stagnation!" "policy-induced wage suppression has stifled growth in living standards and generated inequality" there was wage suppression but it's not stagnation! What a stupid article.