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PHP won because web designers now can be programmers too. I don't care about algorithms, binary trees or what fuck. I can code a web page in a day and that pay

PHP won because web designers now can be programmers too. I don't care about algorithms, binary trees or what fuck. I can code a web page in a day and that pays the bills. It could have been an echo, a print or a put, but it had to be simple for us, not scary as system.console.writeln() Most of you will never understand, you all come from a C or Lisp background and can make a computer cry for sure. We don't care, we just want to spit HTML in shiny ways and 'echo' is all we need.

jjames 18y ago
Indeed, there is design and then there is Design. There is architecture and there is Architecture. There is programming and there is Programming. Anyone can write but not everyone can (or rightly wants to) Write. This is nothing new. Pulp outsells literature and I'm sure people cry rivers over it. Does that mean pulp "wins"? By one measure, obviously. But they still won't teach it in school and noone will remember it when it's gone.
- patio11 18y ago
  [T]hey still won't teach it in school and noone will remember it when it's gone. Indeed, imagine a world in which English classes started with bawdy, violence filled plays written to entertain a mostly drunken and illiterate rabble. Then for the second unit, you could maybe read a serializations designed to sell magazines, whose author was paid by the word. Perhaps by the end of the year, you'd be ready for pop-lit writers who had to retcon their stories due to marketing considerations. Ugh, what a pitiful and impoverished English curriculum it would be if transient crowd-pleasing drek like Shakespeare, Dickens, and Doyle were studied as literature.
  - ahoyhere 18y ago
    There's a difference between pulp and Shakespeare. Shakespeare's understanding (and manipulation) of the human condition is self-aware, with a wink and a nod. Pulp, on the other hand, is typified by "Pregnant by the Millionaire." (A real book.) The author may have a certain level of self-loathing (doubt it), but these books are straight for all it's worth.
    - saulhoward 18y ago
      There is no difference between 'pulp' and Shakespeare. Shakespeare wrote for the crowds of his day. The difference you allude to is between 'good' and 'bad' writing, according to your personal preference. 'Pulp' refers to popularity, not literary merit.
      - olavk 18y ago
        Pulp is a genre. One of the characteristics of the genre is that it is written to sell (rather than eg. to achieve litterary recognition or to explore the limits of language or whatever). But just because something is popular does not make it pulp.
      - DougBTX 18y ago
        'Pulp' refers to 'wood pulp', as in cheap and without much substance. Though you're right, judging something as objectively good is a generally hard thing to do, especially when what you are really trying to do is guess what people in 100 years will think of as good.
  - jjames 18y ago
    I may have misstepped using the word pulp as it surely would be conflated with the genre. I was using it in a more general purpose way. I will (try) to refrain from that in the future. Let me find another example which can't be confused with Shakespeare. The Beatles wrote music to be enjoyed by the masses, popular music if you will in much the same way Vanilla Ice did. I do assign one more value over the other simply for longevity of the it's presence in and impact on western culture. I will let you guess which one. There's a good reason I can assume which you will guess. I hardly fault pulp (I tried) for aiming at culture. I am simply rating its aim and potency. What is PHP influencing? How are PHP developers going to advance programming? In 50 years will we be using it? Will there be 30 newer programming langauages that picked up the choice bits from PHP? It probably doesn't matter and definitely not for programmers today but in conversations evaluating the success or failure of languages these topics will be prime.
- raquo 18y ago
  Programming (arguably) is not an end it itself. Programs are written to be useful to people, who don't care what tools/languages were used to create what's useful to them. A website does not turn out useless if its backend is written in PHP rather than Ruby, just as a novel does not turn out less interesting/intelligent/whatever if it is typed on a cheap typewriter rather than some Mac Pro.
  - jjames 18y ago
    You are right. I would, though, argue that design, architecture, music or art are not ends in themselves. They are method and some method are more evolutionarily significant to culture measured over time. At least that's what it looks like.
1gor 18y ago
You are right. Also, this website needs more lifestyle, social and political topics. Vote this up if you want to rename it Designer News.
- CalmQuiet 18y ago
  Nope. There's lots of places for designer news. I visit them for that. If you raise "designer issues" that have broad appeal to the somewhat geekier HN audience, they'll get addressed here - and probably with more explanation of arcane underlying issues... which is what I appreciate here.
- jjames 18y ago
  Or perhaps Insufficiently Veiled Sarcasm News.

jjames 18y ago

Indeed, there is design and then there is Design. There is architecture and there is Architecture. There is programming and there is Programming. Anyone can write but not everyone can (or rightly wants to) Write. This is nothing new. Pulp outsells literature and I'm sure people cry rivers over it. Does that mean pulp "wins"? By one measure, obviously. But they still won't teach it in school and noone will remember it when it's gone.

patio11 18y ago
[T]hey still won't teach it in school and noone will remember it when it's gone. Indeed, imagine a world in which English classes started with bawdy, violence filled plays written to entertain a mostly drunken and illiterate rabble. Then for the second unit, you could maybe read a serializations designed to sell magazines, whose author was paid by the word. Perhaps by the end of the year, you'd be ready for pop-lit writers who had to retcon their stories due to marketing considerations. Ugh, what a pitiful and impoverished English curriculum it would be if transient crowd-pleasing drek like Shakespeare, Dickens, and Doyle were studied as literature.
- ahoyhere 18y ago
  There's a difference between pulp and Shakespeare. Shakespeare's understanding (and manipulation) of the human condition is self-aware, with a wink and a nod. Pulp, on the other hand, is typified by "Pregnant by the Millionaire." (A real book.) The author may have a certain level of self-loathing (doubt it), but these books are straight for all it's worth.
  - saulhoward 18y ago
    There is no difference between 'pulp' and Shakespeare. Shakespeare wrote for the crowds of his day. The difference you allude to is between 'good' and 'bad' writing, according to your personal preference. 'Pulp' refers to popularity, not literary merit.
    - olavk 18y ago
      Pulp is a genre. One of the characteristics of the genre is that it is written to sell (rather than eg. to achieve litterary recognition or to explore the limits of language or whatever). But just because something is popular does not make it pulp.
    - DougBTX 18y ago
      'Pulp' refers to 'wood pulp', as in cheap and without much substance. Though you're right, judging something as objectively good is a generally hard thing to do, especially when what you are really trying to do is guess what people in 100 years will think of as good.
- jjames 18y ago
  I may have misstepped using the word pulp as it surely would be conflated with the genre. I was using it in a more general purpose way. I will (try) to refrain from that in the future. Let me find another example which can't be confused with Shakespeare. The Beatles wrote music to be enjoyed by the masses, popular music if you will in much the same way Vanilla Ice did. I do assign one more value over the other simply for longevity of the it's presence in and impact on western culture. I will let you guess which one. There's a good reason I can assume which you will guess. I hardly fault pulp (I tried) for aiming at culture. I am simply rating its aim and potency. What is PHP influencing? How are PHP developers going to advance programming? In 50 years will we be using it? Will there be 30 newer programming langauages that picked up the choice bits from PHP? It probably doesn't matter and definitely not for programmers today but in conversations evaluating the success or failure of languages these topics will be prime.
raquo 18y ago
Programming (arguably) is not an end it itself. Programs are written to be useful to people, who don't care what tools/languages were used to create what's useful to them. A website does not turn out useless if its backend is written in PHP rather than Ruby, just as a novel does not turn out less interesting/intelligent/whatever if it is typed on a cheap typewriter rather than some Mac Pro.
- jjames 18y ago
  You are right. I would, though, argue that design, architecture, music or art are not ends in themselves. They are method and some method are more evolutionarily significant to culture measured over time. At least that's what it looks like.

1gor 18y ago

You are right. Also, this website needs more lifestyle, social and political topics. Vote this up if you want to rename it Designer News.

CalmQuiet 18y ago
Nope. There's lots of places for designer news. I visit them for that. If you raise "designer issues" that have broad appeal to the somewhat geekier HN audience, they'll get addressed here - and probably with more explanation of arcane underlying issues... which is what I appreciate here.
jjames 18y ago
Or perhaps Insufficiently Veiled Sarcasm News.