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from talking to Giles (I work with him), I think his problem with hacker news is that it's basically turning into another digg/reddit/slashdot type of thing. It

from talking to Giles (I work with him), I think his problem with hacker news is that it's basically turning into another digg/reddit/slashdot type of thing. It's basically a pool of links outlining what's popular with whoever the users of the site are at the moment, and that group of people is likely to change over time. I think what would work better is a pool of links that shows you stuff you might find interesting based on past usage (voting up/down, friending others, etc). Don't show me what's interesting to everybody who reads the site, show me what's interesting to _me_. As Giles has said in the past, I have a need for better filtering mechanisms.

jjames 18y ago
There is a fundamental conflict of interests in asking for new information from a diverse cross section of people (aka the web) while also wanting to only see those things with which you already agree. If your purpose is knowledge or worldly depth/breadth, there is probably greater value in doing exactly the opposite. You know best those things which you already like.. so exposure to those ideas you don't already like would provide the greatest bang for the cognitive buck. If anything, we need less filters. (imo)
- mattlyon 18y ago
  right, i'll go ahead and remove digg and reddit from my /etc/hosts blackhole then
  - jjames 18y ago
    I see your point. I don't know the answer but I am wary of group-thinking ourselves into cranky single mindedness.
    - ahoyhere 18y ago
      But reddit, digg, and HN are all sources of group-think, not really diversity. Of the 3, HN is the only one that really welcome true contrariness SOMETIMES, but I've still been downmodded for pointing out biases and groupthink here. And I'm not even an asshole about it.
      - jjames 18y ago
        They always crucify the heretics. It's an group instinct that thwarts leadership and completely counter to the theoretical intention of HN. This should be a tribe of heretics.
Xichekolas 18y ago
Ah. I come here mostly for the discussion. It's honestly quite rare that the actual link is that interesting to me. In fact, the commentary here is probably the only thing that really differentiates it from Reddit/Digg. But if he wants content personalized, Stumbleupon might be a good avenue.
- mark_h 18y ago
  I come here mostly for the discussion. It's honestly quite rare that the actual link is that interesting to me. I've been finding exactly the same thing, actually. Usually when I upvote it's because the discussion is interesting, rather than the article. I don't really have a problem with that though; reddit et al can provide links in topics of immediate interest, but the community still differentiates HN IMO.
- JesseAldridge 18y ago
  Actually, since you mention Stumbleupon... They have a feature where you can do friends-only stumbling, where a "friend" is someone you have subscribed too. Maybe a bunch of us could make accounts specifically for hacker related stuff, and then subscribe to one another. Edit: I just created http://jessealdridge.stumbleupon.com/ http://jessealdridge.stumbleupon.com/ if anyone is interested in doing this.
- cosmo7 18y ago
  Hacker News is still different to Digg and Reddit because those sites have a sense of humor.
coliveira 18y ago
Your made a really good point. I like HN, but the selection of headlines in the front page is mostly irrelevant to me. It just tells me the topics that people are discussing, but they are usually of less interest in my point of view. I find many more interesting things by just scanning the "new" section. It would be nice if there was some way to have a front page with just the news that I like.
CalmQuiet 18y ago
What makes HN valuable (to me at least) is a higher-grade pool of tech-savvy commenters - folks who'll bring new perspectives to a problem/issue being discussed. ...and not filling up the pages with "comments" like >>Awesome post!
gommm 18y ago
From reading gilles' take on hacker news and the fact that he thinks that one of the problem is that people who waste more time vote more (because they are wasting their time reading everything on here), I wonder if limiting the number of votes to 3-5 a day would be a good move? People who come here a bit only would have proportionally more power than before... But a system that recommended links from past usage would be interesting (and a fun challenge to do well)
- rsheridan6 18y ago
  Slashdot already does something like that - rationing mod points. OTOH, slashdot also disproves his idea that social news (if slashdot can be called that) declines as a function of time. Today's slashdotters are a lot smarter than Diggers or redditors.
pg 18y ago
One of the constants of News.YC is people worrying it's turning into d/r/s. As far as I can tell the site is about the same as it always was. (If anyone wants to check, item ids are sequential.) But I did wonder when I saw his title whether it was a contemptuous test to see if standards here had fallen so low that he could get to number 1 simply by baiting News.YC by name.
- giles_bowkett 18y ago
  unfortunately it wasn't a test, there was no if. I knew it would work. see the link at the bottom of my post, to the summon monsters post, explaining the inevitable signal/noise decline. the tactic will become more effective as time goes on, and PHP dominating the top stories told me the decline had progressed. (I had returned to the site after a prolonged hiatus.) it's not contemptuous, although it may seem contemptible. I just did the math, knew the tactic would become infallible over time, and used it when signs indicated it would succeed. of course this implicitly challenges your statement that the site's the same as it ever was. I actually don't have any proof to back that up. I think it would actually be reallllllllllllllllly hard to quantify. I could say there's a frog in boiling water effect there, but then there's the possibility that HN aka News.YC simply had a bad day yesterday, and if I had chosen another day for my random return, I could have come away with the impression it was improving.
  - ryanwaggoner 18y ago
    unfortunately it wasn't a test, there was no if. I knew it would work. Ah, the classic claim that there was never any doubt of success. Always works best after the fact.
    - ahoyhere 18y ago
      Nota bene: You may think what I'm about to write has something to do with your last name, but I'm not that funny. HN is very predictable, in some ways. It's not predictable with 100% accuracy like digg or reddit. But, still, HN people have a group identity to a large degree. And if you attack that group identity, the group is interested in the attack and they are ready to circle the wagons. Both interest and wagon-circling in this context mean upvoting so other people see it. Hasn't just about everything Giles' written about HN come up on the front page?
Radix 18y ago
Meh, I thought that was the point. I enjoy this forum because others cull through a mass of information to find interesting things. I don't always know what I will find interesting so I choose a group to guide.
giles_bowkett 18y ago
hey Matt so I'm actually writing this while telling you in Campfire that you're right. so there's not much point except that I figured a little "yep" would be useful for the discussion. and as you know I have a very specific solution in mind but we won't go there. ^_^ regarding the whole discussion vs. linkroll thing, I have to say the quality of the discussion is one place where Hacker News still really shines. I have no theory to explain that atm.

jjames 18y ago

There is a fundamental conflict of interests in asking for new information from a diverse cross section of people (aka the web) while also wanting to only see those things with which you already agree. If your purpose is knowledge or worldly depth/breadth, there is probably greater value in doing exactly the opposite. You know best those things which you already like.. so exposure to those ideas you don't already like would provide the greatest bang for the cognitive buck. If anything, we need less filters. (imo)

mattlyon 18y ago
right, i'll go ahead and remove digg and reddit from my /etc/hosts blackhole then
- jjames 18y ago
  I see your point. I don't know the answer but I am wary of group-thinking ourselves into cranky single mindedness.
  - ahoyhere 18y ago
    But reddit, digg, and HN are all sources of group-think, not really diversity. Of the 3, HN is the only one that really welcome true contrariness SOMETIMES, but I've still been downmodded for pointing out biases and groupthink here. And I'm not even an asshole about it.
    - jjames 18y ago
      They always crucify the heretics. It's an group instinct that thwarts leadership and completely counter to the theoretical intention of HN. This should be a tribe of heretics.

Xichekolas 18y ago

Ah. I come here mostly for the discussion. It's honestly quite rare that the actual link is that interesting to me. In fact, the commentary here is probably the only thing that really differentiates it from Reddit/Digg. But if he wants content personalized, Stumbleupon might be a good avenue.

mark_h 18y ago
I come here mostly for the discussion. It's honestly quite rare that the actual link is that interesting to me. I've been finding exactly the same thing, actually. Usually when I upvote it's because the discussion is interesting, rather than the article. I don't really have a problem with that though; reddit et al can provide links in topics of immediate interest, but the community still differentiates HN IMO.
JesseAldridge 18y ago
Actually, since you mention Stumbleupon... They have a feature where you can do friends-only stumbling, where a "friend" is someone you have subscribed too. Maybe a bunch of us could make accounts specifically for hacker related stuff, and then subscribe to one another. Edit: I just created http://jessealdridge.stumbleupon.com/ http://jessealdridge.stumbleupon.com/ if anyone is interested in doing this.
cosmo7 18y ago
Hacker News is still different to Digg and Reddit because those sites have a sense of humor.

coliveira 18y ago

Your made a really good point. I like HN, but the selection of headlines in the front page is mostly irrelevant to me. It just tells me the topics that people are discussing, but they are usually of less interest in my point of view. I find many more interesting things by just scanning the "new" section. It would be nice if there was some way to have a front page with just the news that I like.

CalmQuiet 18y ago

What makes HN valuable (to me at least) is a higher-grade pool of tech-savvy commenters - folks who'll bring new perspectives to a problem/issue being discussed. ...and not filling up the pages with "comments" like >>Awesome post!

gommm 18y ago

From reading gilles' take on hacker news and the fact that he thinks that one of the problem is that people who waste more time vote more (because they are wasting their time reading everything on here), I wonder if limiting the number of votes to 3-5 a day would be a good move? People who come here a bit only would have proportionally more power than before... But a system that recommended links from past usage would be interesting (and a fun challenge to do well)

rsheridan6 18y ago
Slashdot already does something like that - rationing mod points. OTOH, slashdot also disproves his idea that social news (if slashdot can be called that) declines as a function of time. Today's slashdotters are a lot smarter than Diggers or redditors.

pg 18y ago

One of the constants of News.YC is people worrying it's turning into d/r/s. As far as I can tell the site is about the same as it always was. (If anyone wants to check, item ids are sequential.) But I did wonder when I saw his title whether it was a contemptuous test to see if standards here had fallen so low that he could get to number 1 simply by baiting News.YC by name.

giles_bowkett 18y ago
unfortunately it wasn't a test, there was no if. I knew it would work. see the link at the bottom of my post, to the summon monsters post, explaining the inevitable signal/noise decline. the tactic will become more effective as time goes on, and PHP dominating the top stories told me the decline had progressed. (I had returned to the site after a prolonged hiatus.) it's not contemptuous, although it may seem contemptible. I just did the math, knew the tactic would become infallible over time, and used it when signs indicated it would succeed. of course this implicitly challenges your statement that the site's the same as it ever was. I actually don't have any proof to back that up. I think it would actually be reallllllllllllllllly hard to quantify. I could say there's a frog in boiling water effect there, but then there's the possibility that HN aka News.YC simply had a bad day yesterday, and if I had chosen another day for my random return, I could have come away with the impression it was improving.
- ryanwaggoner 18y ago
  unfortunately it wasn't a test, there was no if. I knew it would work. Ah, the classic claim that there was never any doubt of success. Always works best after the fact.
  - ahoyhere 18y ago
    Nota bene: You may think what I'm about to write has something to do with your last name, but I'm not that funny. HN is very predictable, in some ways. It's not predictable with 100% accuracy like digg or reddit. But, still, HN people have a group identity to a large degree. And if you attack that group identity, the group is interested in the attack and they are ready to circle the wagons. Both interest and wagon-circling in this context mean upvoting so other people see it. Hasn't just about everything Giles' written about HN come up on the front page?

Radix 18y ago

Meh, I thought that was the point. I enjoy this forum because others cull through a mass of information to find interesting things. I don't always know what I will find interesting so I choose a group to guide.

giles_bowkett 18y ago

hey Matt so I'm actually writing this while telling you in Campfire that you're right. so there's not much point except that I figured a little "yep" would be useful for the discussion. and as you know I have a very specific solution in mind but we won't go there. ^_^ regarding the whole discussion vs. linkroll thing, I have to say the quality of the discussion is one place where Hacker News still really shines. I have no theory to explain that atm.