5 ms·

> If students find a way to get a diploma without doing the work, it will soon be worth less than the paper on which it is printed. Amen. I look forward to th

> If students find a way to get a diploma without doing the work, it will soon be worth less than the paper on which it is printed. Amen. I look forward to the era where we train professionals the old fashion way: apprenticeships. It sure worked for blacksmiths and artisans for hundreds of years.

smcg 1y ago
Companies don't want to retain anyone longer than 2 years. They would never go for this unless forced to. By collective action.
- renewiltord 1y ago
  It’s not that they can’t. It’s that I can always pay more by freeloading on their training.
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    Sure, then they complain that "nobody wants to work abymore". They can't have it both ways
melagonster 1y ago
Teenagers and children were treated as a free servant for several years, and probably cannot learn anything.
pjmlp 1y ago
That is how many professionals are training in many European countries, and they still want a diploma to go with it. In many countries, regardless of how learning it was achieved, you still need a paper to prove that you actually did it. And in countries like Germany, better keep all those job evaluations close at heart because they get asked for as part of many job interview processes, additionally have them reviewed by lawyers, as they legally can't say anything negative, there is an hidden language on how to express negativity which to the reader sound positive on first read.
- exe34 1y ago
  He regularly turned up to work. He attempted every task that he was given. His manager evaluated the results.
- Akronymus 1y ago
  Techbically even those hidden phrases arent permitted by law, and you have the right to get those phrases removed/have it be turned into a basic evaluation (just from when to when + what job) The employers that do use those hidden phrases just hope they arent challenged/the employee doesnt notice. Thats also why most evaluations are entirely written in the superlative.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Unfortunely they are common enough to keep lawyers and book publishing businesses going with dictionaries "evaluation => real meaning", exactly for that little help to go though it and validate its correctness. Many employeers profit from foreigners that aren't well versed in these nuances, and have to be educated this is a thing. An example for others not used to German work market, https://www.karriereakademie.de/arbeitszeugnis-formulierungen-noten https://www.karriereakademie.de/arbeitszeugnis-formulierunge... Just go through the site with your favourite translation tool.
    - chmod775 1y ago
      There's software for that even. The input is a ranking of the employee on a bunch axis (1-5 or something) and it spits out the appropriate text. Does the reverse too.
      - pjmlp 1y ago
        That one is new to me, sadly doesn't surprise me. When one gets to have a good works council, there are plenty of stories that go around.
  - grumbelbart2 1y ago
    "Missing" information is a huge red flag as well, though. If an Arbeitszeugnis only lists the dates and what the person worked on, and nothing about results or behavior, we would never invite them for an interview.
eirikbakke 1y ago
PhDs are apprenticeships. Students perform original research under the supervision of a doctoral advisor, and submit their work to a "guild" of external reviewers (peer reviewed journals or conferences). Once the student has three peer-reviewed publications, they graduate.
- thugthrasher 1y ago
  "Once the student has three peer-reviewed publications, they graduate." That's not a standard at all. You usually can't graduate without at least one peer-reviewed publication, but beyond that, as far as number of publications goes, it varies a lot from institution to institution. The biggest standard is that you complete a dissertation and defend it.
jll29 1y ago
An apprentice, after five years of work, can be a master, just by practcising. That's why the universities of Oxford and Cambridge give Master's degree to everyone that gets a Bachelor's degree after five years, without further examination or coursework (note that these are MAs only, not MRes, MPhil or MBA degrees, which typically require 1-2 years of studies, exams and theses). Historically, the academic Master was seen as equivalent to a Master in a craft (e.g. philosophy <=> carpentry).

smcg 1y ago

Companies don't want to retain anyone longer than 2 years. They would never go for this unless forced to. By collective action.

renewiltord 1y ago
It’s not that they can’t. It’s that I can always pay more by freeloading on their training.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  Sure, then they complain that "nobody wants to work abymore". They can't have it both ways

melagonster 1y ago

Teenagers and children were treated as a free servant for several years, and probably cannot learn anything.

pjmlp 1y ago

That is how many professionals are training in many European countries, and they still want a diploma to go with it. In many countries, regardless of how learning it was achieved, you still need a paper to prove that you actually did it. And in countries like Germany, better keep all those job evaluations close at heart because they get asked for as part of many job interview processes, additionally have them reviewed by lawyers, as they legally can't say anything negative, there is an hidden language on how to express negativity which to the reader sound positive on first read.

exe34 1y ago
He regularly turned up to work. He attempted every task that he was given. His manager evaluated the results.
Akronymus 1y ago
Techbically even those hidden phrases arent permitted by law, and you have the right to get those phrases removed/have it be turned into a basic evaluation (just from when to when + what job) The employers that do use those hidden phrases just hope they arent challenged/the employee doesnt notice. Thats also why most evaluations are entirely written in the superlative.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Unfortunely they are common enough to keep lawyers and book publishing businesses going with dictionaries "evaluation => real meaning", exactly for that little help to go though it and validate its correctness. Many employeers profit from foreigners that aren't well versed in these nuances, and have to be educated this is a thing. An example for others not used to German work market, https://www.karriereakademie.de/arbeitszeugnis-formulierungen-noten https://www.karriereakademie.de/arbeitszeugnis-formulierunge... Just go through the site with your favourite translation tool.
  - chmod775 1y ago
    There's software for that even. The input is a ranking of the employee on a bunch axis (1-5 or something) and it spits out the appropriate text. Does the reverse too.
    - pjmlp 1y ago
      That one is new to me, sadly doesn't surprise me. When one gets to have a good works council, there are plenty of stories that go around.
- grumbelbart2 1y ago
  "Missing" information is a huge red flag as well, though. If an Arbeitszeugnis only lists the dates and what the person worked on, and nothing about results or behavior, we would never invite them for an interview.

eirikbakke 1y ago

PhDs are apprenticeships. Students perform original research under the supervision of a doctoral advisor, and submit their work to a "guild" of external reviewers (peer reviewed journals or conferences). Once the student has three peer-reviewed publications, they graduate.

thugthrasher 1y ago
"Once the student has three peer-reviewed publications, they graduate." That's not a standard at all. You usually can't graduate without at least one peer-reviewed publication, but beyond that, as far as number of publications goes, it varies a lot from institution to institution. The biggest standard is that you complete a dissertation and defend it.

jll29 1y ago

An apprentice, after five years of work, can be a master, just by practcising. That's why the universities of Oxford and Cambridge give Master's degree to everyone that gets a Bachelor's degree after five years, without further examination or coursework (note that these are MAs only, not MRes, MPhil or MBA degrees, which typically require 1-2 years of studies, exams and theses). Historically, the academic Master was seen as equivalent to a Master in a craft (e.g. philosophy <=> carpentry).