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Anybody who has ever been in a serious snowball fight knows the power of the two snowball technique, a high lob to distract followed by a quick fastball (to the

Anybody who has ever been in a serious snowball fight knows the power of the two snowball technique, a high lob to distract followed by a quick fastball (to the face/torso). An army of professional archers would undoubtedly be experts in the same technique.

Qwertious 1y ago
What would a high lob do, when your target is wearing a helmet and shoulder armour? More importantly, people's silhouette from side-on is far bigger than their silhouette from the top down.
lukan 1y ago
Maybe go to a LARP or reanectment event and participate (arrows with rubber endings) to compare if there are differences with your close range snowball fight. "army of professional archers would undoubtedly be experts in the same technique." Because I do doubt that a lot. There is no one shooting in the air on a battlefield to distract.
- onlypassingthru 1y ago
  Your LARPers are nothing like historical professionals. It's like asking a bunch of chubby Sunday Leaguers to imitate a Champions League team. Not. Even. Close.
  - lukan 1y ago
    Hm. Are you aware that reenactment and research often go hand in hand? And if those people won't know, who actually try it out - then sureley you would know better. But how?
    - haiku2077 1y ago
      You might have mixed up LARP and HEMA.
      - lukan 1y ago
        No, I did not. But I just stated, that both exist and shoot at people with arrows. (But both do get mixed up, as people involved often go to both events.) And LARP is not scientific, but reenactment often has historians included. Also as part of research. I did not think that point was somehow unclear.
  - onlypassingthru 1y ago
    To answer below: My fellow Sunday Leaguers also study and re-enact Champions League football. It's a lot of fun but I'm not foolish enough to think I belong on the pitch in a real competition. I didn't train my whole life to be an expert footballer and most researchers didn't train their whole life to drive an arrow through a man in battle.
    - lukan 1y ago
      [You can click the timestamp to reply directly to any comment] And there are still native tribes doing hunting and warfare with bows, that were and are studied. And some reenactment freaks are in a way better shape than their ancestors ever were, due to heavy training and better food. Nobody is shooting in the air with an arrow to distract like you would a snowball. You shoot straight.
      - onlypassingthru 1y ago
        Please comment here when you know of any LARPers taking on (${insert_professional_sports_team_here}) so I can watch the match!
      - the_sleaze_ 1y ago
        Do you have any experience with a professional athlete in any meaningful direct way? It's normally described as a professional is to a good amateur as a good amateur is to a 5 year old toddler.
        lukan 1y ago
        I am (or was) a pretty good athlete myself and I still regular shoot with bows (and toy arrows) at people. And I have trained with better athletes. So I value my own opinion here.
        the_sleaze_ 1y ago
        I've trained with professional fighters in the UFC, and played for as a warmup alternate for my city's MLS team. I've also played extensively with professional soccer players in invitation only pickup games. The difference is truly profound. While I understand you may value your experience you might allow for some lack of direct personal experience.
haiku2077 1y ago
A unit of archers has a very limited supply of arrows, enough to shoot for a few minutes before they have to resupply. They also cannot precise aim a lobbed shot because their weapons do not have the appropriate sight nor a rifled barrel to maintain accuracy or energy with a high lob. Arrows fired in an excessively high arc are wasted. It seems like your intuition of weapons and warfare comes from mass media, not historical evidence or practitioners.
- onlypassingthru 1y ago
  We have skeletal evidence of professional archers. It takes years of dedicated practice since adolescence in order to modify the bone structure like that. That additional bone strength means these professionals were likely able to use draw strengths no modern enthusiast could even touch. It also follows that if they were part of a standing army, they also undoubtedly practiced skills together and used a variety of equipment, like short bows and longbows. Unfortunately, we have no mass media that reflects what a professional archer of yesteryear looked like because that profession died centuries ago and nobody has modified their skeleton to amuse us. However, we can tell from some of their bones they were somewhat lopsided as the arms were conditioned for purpose. For example: "The men of the Towton population appear to have been engaged in a habitual activity that preferentially loaded the left humerus when compared with the right. This disparity is strongest in the distal humeral shaft. The loading pattern varies such that it creates signiﬁcant differences between limbs in diaphyseal shape from the mid-distal to midproximal shaft." [0] Despite what the weekend warriors and LARPers would like to believe, the historical professionals really were anatomically and physically better at the job. [0] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285885888_Architectural_and_biomechanical_alterations_in_medieval_humeri_is_there_a_pre-adaptive_relationship_to_humeral_form https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285885888_Architect...
  - haiku2077 1y ago
    What does draw strength have to do with not having an computed sight for hitting a moving target with a top-down shot, or the lack if rifling to keep an arrow from tumbling when gravity slows it down at the top of the required ballistic curve? Or the scarcity of ammunition? These are issues if technology, not of training or exercise.

Qwertious 1y ago

What would a high lob do, when your target is wearing a helmet and shoulder armour? More importantly, people's silhouette from side-on is far bigger than their silhouette from the top down.

lukan 1y ago

Maybe go to a LARP or reanectment event and participate (arrows with rubber endings) to compare if there are differences with your close range snowball fight. "army of professional archers would undoubtedly be experts in the same technique." Because I do doubt that a lot. There is no one shooting in the air on a battlefield to distract.

onlypassingthru 1y ago
Your LARPers are nothing like historical professionals. It's like asking a bunch of chubby Sunday Leaguers to imitate a Champions League team. Not. Even. Close.
- lukan 1y ago
  Hm. Are you aware that reenactment and research often go hand in hand? And if those people won't know, who actually try it out - then sureley you would know better. But how?
  - haiku2077 1y ago
    You might have mixed up LARP and HEMA.
    - lukan 1y ago
      No, I did not. But I just stated, that both exist and shoot at people with arrows. (But both do get mixed up, as people involved often go to both events.) And LARP is not scientific, but reenactment often has historians included. Also as part of research. I did not think that point was somehow unclear.
- onlypassingthru 1y ago
  To answer below: My fellow Sunday Leaguers also study and re-enact Champions League football. It's a lot of fun but I'm not foolish enough to think I belong on the pitch in a real competition. I didn't train my whole life to be an expert footballer and most researchers didn't train their whole life to drive an arrow through a man in battle.
  - lukan 1y ago
    [You can click the timestamp to reply directly to any comment] And there are still native tribes doing hunting and warfare with bows, that were and are studied. And some reenactment freaks are in a way better shape than their ancestors ever were, due to heavy training and better food. Nobody is shooting in the air with an arrow to distract like you would a snowball. You shoot straight.
    - onlypassingthru 1y ago
      Please comment here when you know of any LARPers taking on (${insert_professional_sports_team_here}) so I can watch the match!
    - the_sleaze_ 1y ago
      Do you have any experience with a professional athlete in any meaningful direct way? It's normally described as a professional is to a good amateur as a good amateur is to a 5 year old toddler.
      - lukan 1y ago
        I am (or was) a pretty good athlete myself and I still regular shoot with bows (and toy arrows) at people. And I have trained with better athletes. So I value my own opinion here.
        the_sleaze_ 1y ago
        I've trained with professional fighters in the UFC, and played for as a warmup alternate for my city's MLS team. I've also played extensively with professional soccer players in invitation only pickup games. The difference is truly profound. While I understand you may value your experience you might allow for some lack of direct personal experience.

haiku2077 1y ago

A unit of archers has a very limited supply of arrows, enough to shoot for a few minutes before they have to resupply. They also cannot precise aim a lobbed shot because their weapons do not have the appropriate sight nor a rifled barrel to maintain accuracy or energy with a high lob. Arrows fired in an excessively high arc are wasted. It seems like your intuition of weapons and warfare comes from mass media, not historical evidence or practitioners.

onlypassingthru 1y ago
We have skeletal evidence of professional archers. It takes years of dedicated practice since adolescence in order to modify the bone structure like that. That additional bone strength means these professionals were likely able to use draw strengths no modern enthusiast could even touch. It also follows that if they were part of a standing army, they also undoubtedly practiced skills together and used a variety of equipment, like short bows and longbows. Unfortunately, we have no mass media that reflects what a professional archer of yesteryear looked like because that profession died centuries ago and nobody has modified their skeleton to amuse us. However, we can tell from some of their bones they were somewhat lopsided as the arms were conditioned for purpose. For example: "The men of the Towton population appear to have been engaged in a habitual activity that preferentially loaded the left humerus when compared with the right. This disparity is strongest in the distal humeral shaft. The loading pattern varies such that it creates signiﬁcant differences between limbs in diaphyseal shape from the mid-distal to midproximal shaft." [0] Despite what the weekend warriors and LARPers would like to believe, the historical professionals really were anatomically and physically better at the job. [0] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285885888_Architectural_and_biomechanical_alterations_in_medieval_humeri_is_there_a_pre-adaptive_relationship_to_humeral_form https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285885888_Architect...
- haiku2077 1y ago
  What does draw strength have to do with not having an computed sight for hitting a moving target with a top-down shot, or the lack if rifling to keep an arrow from tumbling when gravity slows it down at the top of the required ballistic curve? Or the scarcity of ammunition? These are issues if technology, not of training or exercise.