5 ms·

I have really fallen in love with LISP recently, specifically clojure. A strong type system is really needed for it to make me feel like I can confidently devel

I have really fallen in love with LISP recently, specifically clojure. A strong type system is really needed for it to make me feel like I can confidently develop with it.

vindarel 1y ago
just get Common Lisp with this new Clojure collection and sequence API! https://github.com/dtenny/clj-coll https://github.com/dtenny/clj-coll
- nextos 1y ago
  A modern CL that borrows ideas from Clojure, and with a strongly typed language (Coalton) also available is indeed very appealing!
  - vosper 1y ago
    Have you (or anyone else reading this) used Coalton? What's your experience been like? Seems quite appealing to me.
    - Y_Y 1y ago
      The language looks amazing on paper, the install process (last I tried) was a nightmare of fighting quicklisp.
      - klibertp 1y ago
        That's on quicklisp, not Coalton. Honestly, quicklisp is one of the worst parts of CL nowadays (right after the lack of coroutines[1], which is by far the worst offender.) It should have been replaced a long time ago. ASDF3 provides a lot of flexibility, and quicklisp uses maybe 15% of its capabilities. There are reasons why it's still so bad, but it gets less and less excusable each year :( [1] Does anybody know how to ping Kartik Singh about the coroutines implementation in SBCL? Apparently, he made an experimental port of the green threads implementation from CMUCL, but I can't find it anywhere online, nor any obvious way to catch anyone involved. Is the mailing list the only way?
        boogsbyte 1y ago
        From what I heard he's not working on it anymore but the code can be found here: https://github.com/kartik-s/sbcl/blob/coroutines/src%2Fcode%2Fcoroutine.lisp https://github.com/kartik-s/sbcl/blob/coroutines/src%2Fcode%...
        klibertp 1y ago
        Thank you!! I was very interested in `convert-thread-to-coroutine` - I saw it on the ELS presentation, and when I went spelunking in the CMUCL codebase, I found the prototypes for `fork` and `resume`, but (probably because CMUCL is single-threaded?) nothing that would suggest how that `convert...` should look like. Why is there so little interest in green threads/coroutines in CL community? cl-cont really isn't something to point to when asked about C10K problem... or yield/yield*... or async/await...
        boogsbyte 1y ago
        There's great interest for it, not little. The challenge is who can do compiler programming, add a production ready implementation as contrib SBCL package, and maintain it?
        klibertp 1y ago
        Hm, my impression is based on the lack of posts or articles with people demanding this to be a feature. I searched, and it just doesn't seem to come up in discussions, and when it does, it's invariably about cl-cont and problems with it. The first implementation doesn't need to be production-ready. And the maintenance burden (along with polishing the implementation and porting to other architectures) could be shared by a few people and done over time. Having a starting point in the form of CMUCL code (already adapted to SBCL!) is the perfect opportunity for everyone interested to chime in: enough voices in favor could convince someone capable to continue the work. Yet, there are literally just 3 comments under the ESL presentation video, and it's not mentioned anywhere else...
    - nextos 1y ago
      My experience is good, but I have only written smallish programs. Documentation is pretty polished. Installation-wise, NixPkgs is fairly straightforward.
lucyjojo 1y ago
there is typed clojure out there if you want https://typedclojure.org/ https://typedclojure.org/
bmitc 1y ago
There is Typed Racket.
jodleif 1y ago
You could also consider getting into pre/post conditions and specs - helps a lot especially at points with user/data input

I have really fallen in love with LISP recently, specifically clojure. A strong type system is really needed for it to make me feel like I can confidently develop with it.

vindarel 1y ago

just get Common Lisp with this new Clojure collection and sequence API! https://github.com/dtenny/clj-coll https://github.com/dtenny/clj-coll

nextos 1y ago
A modern CL that borrows ideas from Clojure, and with a strongly typed language (Coalton) also available is indeed very appealing!
- vosper 1y ago
  Have you (or anyone else reading this) used Coalton? What's your experience been like? Seems quite appealing to me.
  - Y_Y 1y ago
    The language looks amazing on paper, the install process (last I tried) was a nightmare of fighting quicklisp.
    - klibertp 1y ago
      That's on quicklisp, not Coalton. Honestly, quicklisp is one of the worst parts of CL nowadays (right after the lack of coroutines[1], which is by far the worst offender.) It should have been replaced a long time ago. ASDF3 provides a lot of flexibility, and quicklisp uses maybe 15% of its capabilities. There are reasons why it's still so bad, but it gets less and less excusable each year :( [1] Does anybody know how to ping Kartik Singh about the coroutines implementation in SBCL? Apparently, he made an experimental port of the green threads implementation from CMUCL, but I can't find it anywhere online, nor any obvious way to catch anyone involved. Is the mailing list the only way?
      - boogsbyte 1y ago
        From what I heard he's not working on it anymore but the code can be found here: https://github.com/kartik-s/sbcl/blob/coroutines/src%2Fcode%2Fcoroutine.lisp https://github.com/kartik-s/sbcl/blob/coroutines/src%2Fcode%...
        klibertp 1y ago
        Thank you!! I was very interested in `convert-thread-to-coroutine` - I saw it on the ELS presentation, and when I went spelunking in the CMUCL codebase, I found the prototypes for `fork` and `resume`, but (probably because CMUCL is single-threaded?) nothing that would suggest how that `convert...` should look like. Why is there so little interest in green threads/coroutines in CL community? cl-cont really isn't something to point to when asked about C10K problem... or yield/yield*... or async/await...
        boogsbyte 1y ago
        There's great interest for it, not little. The challenge is who can do compiler programming, add a production ready implementation as contrib SBCL package, and maintain it?
        klibertp 1y ago
        Hm, my impression is based on the lack of posts or articles with people demanding this to be a feature. I searched, and it just doesn't seem to come up in discussions, and when it does, it's invariably about cl-cont and problems with it. The first implementation doesn't need to be production-ready. And the maintenance burden (along with polishing the implementation and porting to other architectures) could be shared by a few people and done over time. Having a starting point in the form of CMUCL code (already adapted to SBCL!) is the perfect opportunity for everyone interested to chime in: enough voices in favor could convince someone capable to continue the work. Yet, there are literally just 3 comments under the ESL presentation video, and it's not mentioned anywhere else...
  - nextos 1y ago
    My experience is good, but I have only written smallish programs. Documentation is pretty polished. Installation-wise, NixPkgs is fairly straightforward.

lucyjojo 1y ago

there is typed clojure out there if you want https://typedclojure.org/ https://typedclojure.org/

bmitc 1y ago

There is Typed Racket.

jodleif 1y ago

You could also consider getting into pre/post conditions and specs - helps a lot especially at points with user/data input