5 ms·

Bluetooth is bad enough that wireless mice/keyboards usually have a USB dongle receiving what I guess is a proprietary RF protocol. Some wireless headphones hav

Bluetooth is bad enough that wireless mice/keyboards usually have a USB dongle receiving what I guess is a proprietary RF protocol. Some wireless headphones have that too. And wifi requires too much power.

numpad0 2y ago
Bluetooth isn't too bad, Logitech Bolt is based on BLE and it's just fine. Bigger problem is integration into x86/x86_64 platform.
- Findecanor 2y ago
  Bluetooth mice use the HID protocol borrowed from USB, except with Bluetooth as carrier. But HID had not been designed for the possibility that packets could get lost: it sends movements as a relative vector since the previous packet. I don't know how Logi Bolt works, but Logitech has claimed that it should work better than BLE when the 2.4 GHz band is congested. Also that it would have better security than BLE.
  - numpad0 2y ago
    I mean, you can't type in BitLocker password wirelessly without a dongle. Optical mice sensors aren't so repeatable anyway, so missing a packet or two probably aren't so critical.
  - freehorse 2y ago
    > But HID had not been designed for the possibility that packets could get lost Doesn't the same problem exist for USB dongles with proprietary RF protocols? Logi Bolt is a good solution. But ime most other USB dongles are terrible. I have had a lot of bad connection issues with such USB dongles, and never with similar bluetooth devices. USB dongles also use the same 2.4GHz band, and even more they are prone to interference from nearby active USB ports [0]. If you have ever had a "jumping" mouse while transfering big amounts of data through a port neighbouring your mouse's USB dongle, this is likely the reason. [0] https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/327216.pdf https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/327216.pdf
    - hmry 2y ago
      The proprietary protocol can use absolute positions between device/dongle, and then the dongle can translate to relative positions at the edge, by returning the difference since the last poll
      - freehorse 2y ago
        Is position estimation from the signal that accurate for that?
        tehbeard 2y ago
        They don't mean the absolute real distance between dongle and mouse. They mean the mouse communicates an absolute position (relative to some arbitrary 0,0 the mouse decides upon) instead of a relative direction. Dongle can then take latest coord packet and diff it against previous coord packet to get a relative coord to pass via HID to the system. If the RF packets are lost, some latency occurs but the dongle still has the previous mouse coord and can make a fairly accurate correction once a packet gets thru (get's from A to D, but might skip points B+C).
        pwg 2y ago
        What happens with that "absolute position relative to some arbitrary 0,0 picked by the mouse" when the user picks the mouse up off the table/pad/etc. and repositions it (i.e., they hit the edge of the pad and now "re-center" to continue moving left (or right) on screen). The mouse loses its 0,0 point reference as soon as it is picked up. It could send a "reset 0,0" packet of some form in this case, but now reception of that packet becomes critical to continuing to properly communicate motion to the attached computer.
        justsomehnguy 2y ago
        > It could send a "reset 0,0" packet of some form in this case, but now reception of that packet becomes critical to continuing to properly communicate motion to the attached computer. And those "how I would have designed a wireless mouse protocol" guys are back at the square one.
  - akvadrako 2y ago
    Bolt can't be better than BLE because it is BLE. Same with Apple gear which pairs so seemlessly. It's just that they control both sides of the signal so can better optimize the connection.
  - mystified5016 2y ago
    I mean, they aren't putting raw HID packets on the air, they're encapsulated within another protocol that does handle reliable retransmission.
freehorse 2y ago
I don't know why USB dongles are popular for manufacturers (I assume to make their product more plug-and-play friendly), but I don't think they are a better solution than bluetooth. For example, it is common that if another USB device is plugged close to a USB dongle, it can cause interference to it, which results to unstable connection and eg makes a mouse "jump", keystrokes not register etc. Finding the right place for a USB dongle can be a pain. USB dongles with proprietary RF protocols are usually a terrible solution imo. I have never had any similar kind of connectivity issues with a bluetooth mouse or keyboard.
- notfed 2y ago
  Bluetooth's latency is just too slow for a mouse. Heck, Bluetooth is too slow for audio, too, but most people seem to be complacent to latency.
  - kergonath 2y ago
    It’s fine for any use of a keyboard or mouse besides a niche in gaming. It also uses less energy than most RF dongles, which results in better battery life (something I could check using a couple of mice that could do both). The fact that Logitech’s current dongles are just BLE with a fancy encryption scheme tends to indicate that they really want their proprietary hardware, and bandwidth is not the reason.
- m000 2y ago
  USB dongles are popular because the mouse is paired with the dongle. This comes handy in a number of use-cases (servicing a different computer, hot-desk office, non tech-inclined people). It is true though that USB interference for wireless dongles is an annoying reality. My Logitech Unifying dongle has issues whenever I copy files over USB. I'm not sure if later revisions or their Bolt dongles have improved on that.
- bramhaag 2y ago
  Some things are difficult to do with a Bluetooth keyboard: you cannot do anything before the OS is booted, such as changing BIOS settings, installing an OS, or choosing a GRUB boot entry. There are workarounds (buying a Bluetooth adapter that can act as a HID proxy) but for me this is enough of a reason to not want to rely on Bluetooth.

numpad0 2y ago

Bluetooth isn't too bad, Logitech Bolt is based on BLE and it's just fine. Bigger problem is integration into x86/x86_64 platform.

Findecanor 2y ago
Bluetooth mice use the HID protocol borrowed from USB, except with Bluetooth as carrier. But HID had not been designed for the possibility that packets could get lost: it sends movements as a relative vector since the previous packet. I don't know how Logi Bolt works, but Logitech has claimed that it should work better than BLE when the 2.4 GHz band is congested. Also that it would have better security than BLE.
- numpad0 2y ago
  I mean, you can't type in BitLocker password wirelessly without a dongle. Optical mice sensors aren't so repeatable anyway, so missing a packet or two probably aren't so critical.
- freehorse 2y ago
  > But HID had not been designed for the possibility that packets could get lost Doesn't the same problem exist for USB dongles with proprietary RF protocols? Logi Bolt is a good solution. But ime most other USB dongles are terrible. I have had a lot of bad connection issues with such USB dongles, and never with similar bluetooth devices. USB dongles also use the same 2.4GHz band, and even more they are prone to interference from nearby active USB ports [0]. If you have ever had a "jumping" mouse while transfering big amounts of data through a port neighbouring your mouse's USB dongle, this is likely the reason. [0] https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/327216.pdf https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/327216.pdf
  - hmry 2y ago
    The proprietary protocol can use absolute positions between device/dongle, and then the dongle can translate to relative positions at the edge, by returning the difference since the last poll
    - freehorse 2y ago
      Is position estimation from the signal that accurate for that?
      - tehbeard 2y ago
        They don't mean the absolute real distance between dongle and mouse. They mean the mouse communicates an absolute position (relative to some arbitrary 0,0 the mouse decides upon) instead of a relative direction. Dongle can then take latest coord packet and diff it against previous coord packet to get a relative coord to pass via HID to the system. If the RF packets are lost, some latency occurs but the dongle still has the previous mouse coord and can make a fairly accurate correction once a packet gets thru (get's from A to D, but might skip points B+C).
        pwg 2y ago
        What happens with that "absolute position relative to some arbitrary 0,0 picked by the mouse" when the user picks the mouse up off the table/pad/etc. and repositions it (i.e., they hit the edge of the pad and now "re-center" to continue moving left (or right) on screen). The mouse loses its 0,0 point reference as soon as it is picked up. It could send a "reset 0,0" packet of some form in this case, but now reception of that packet becomes critical to continuing to properly communicate motion to the attached computer.
        justsomehnguy 2y ago
        > It could send a "reset 0,0" packet of some form in this case, but now reception of that packet becomes critical to continuing to properly communicate motion to the attached computer. And those "how I would have designed a wireless mouse protocol" guys are back at the square one.
- akvadrako 2y ago
  Bolt can't be better than BLE because it is BLE. Same with Apple gear which pairs so seemlessly. It's just that they control both sides of the signal so can better optimize the connection.
- mystified5016 2y ago
  I mean, they aren't putting raw HID packets on the air, they're encapsulated within another protocol that does handle reliable retransmission.

freehorse 2y ago

I don't know why USB dongles are popular for manufacturers (I assume to make their product more plug-and-play friendly), but I don't think they are a better solution than bluetooth. For example, it is common that if another USB device is plugged close to a USB dongle, it can cause interference to it, which results to unstable connection and eg makes a mouse "jump", keystrokes not register etc. Finding the right place for a USB dongle can be a pain. USB dongles with proprietary RF protocols are usually a terrible solution imo. I have never had any similar kind of connectivity issues with a bluetooth mouse or keyboard.

notfed 2y ago
Bluetooth's latency is just too slow for a mouse. Heck, Bluetooth is too slow for audio, too, but most people seem to be complacent to latency.
- kergonath 2y ago
  It’s fine for any use of a keyboard or mouse besides a niche in gaming. It also uses less energy than most RF dongles, which results in better battery life (something I could check using a couple of mice that could do both). The fact that Logitech’s current dongles are just BLE with a fancy encryption scheme tends to indicate that they really want their proprietary hardware, and bandwidth is not the reason.
m000 2y ago
USB dongles are popular because the mouse is paired with the dongle. This comes handy in a number of use-cases (servicing a different computer, hot-desk office, non tech-inclined people). It is true though that USB interference for wireless dongles is an annoying reality. My Logitech Unifying dongle has issues whenever I copy files over USB. I'm not sure if later revisions or their Bolt dongles have improved on that.
bramhaag 2y ago
Some things are difficult to do with a Bluetooth keyboard: you cannot do anything before the OS is booted, such as changing BIOS settings, installing an OS, or choosing a GRUB boot entry. There are workarounds (buying a Bluetooth adapter that can act as a HID proxy) but for me this is enough of a reason to not want to rely on Bluetooth.