6 ms·

The idea that companies should just agree to whatever proposal comes in from a union is preposterous.

by danielmarkbruce 1y ago

postpawl 1y ago
They were negotiating their way up from zero paid sick days per year.
- ornornor 1y ago
  Crazy this is still a thing nowadays especially in so-called developed economies.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Nothing crazy about that. It's mostly European countries that have mandatory paid sick leave by law for everyone, as they fought for that right in the post-war times when the economy was booming and the world outside the west less safe from outsourcing, and importing cheap labor less easy, so the perfect storm giving labor most power over employers, something that's not gonna repeat again in the globalized world of today. It was the temporal global exception, not the rule, as the worldwide norm was working people to death for most of history. Companies would gladly give their workers zero benefits if they could get away with it.
- danielmarkbruce 1y ago
  Compensation packages are just that - a package. Complaining about one individual component in isolation is disingenuous. Unions sent a couple of the big car makers into bankruptcy. They've sent all kinds of companies into bankruptcy - the idea that anything they are suggesting is good by nature is about the same as suggesting communism is good by nature. Sounds pleasant, doesn't work.
  - hhghkj 1y ago
    Businesses that can't stay afloat without underpaying workers have a failing business model. Blaming unions for their eventual demise is foolish. Communism and Capitalism are actually quite similar in a sense. Neither of them works well in their purest form, both lead to formation of an oligarchy (party elite,billionaires). Most livable countries in the world mix them in form of free market social democracy.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      >Businesses that can't stay afloat without underpaying workers have a failing business model. Yet companies have flourished under that model for decades/centuries. Employers and governments have plenty of levers to make sure workers have no choice but to work while being underpaid.
    - danielmarkbruce 1y ago
      Sure, but you say that as though the union is only representing underpaid workers. In many cases they represent overpaid workers.
  - mullingitover 1y ago
    > Unions sent a couple of the big car makers into bankruptcy. It goes both ways, unfortunately. Industry in general couldn't exist without laborers, and it has a long history of brutal abuse and horrific, dangerous working conditions that killed and maimed many. I think it's a cultural problem. We aren't far removed from a time when the general business model was to coercively work people to death to extract every penny of value from them, and that mindset hasn't completely been lost. Workers are callously discarded, not at the doorstep of bankruptcy, but at the first hint that profits might not grow as fast as they could.
    - danielmarkbruce 1y ago
      Yup, it goes both ways. It's not a given that what a company is proposing is good or bad, and it's not a given that what a union is proposing is good or bad. And they negotiate and it is what it is.
- mullingitover 1y ago
  IIRC they had PTO days which were apportioned pretty generously, but they didn't have sick days broken out separately. This doesn't mean they had less time off in general than the prevailing compensation packages. It was a great talking point for the media. However, TBH having a 'here's a bunch of time off, do what you need to with it' is kinda better than 'here's some time off for you to vacation, but then this other amount is only usable if you're sick, and if you're not sick it's money left on the table.'
sofixa 1y ago
The idea that profits are more important than basic humanity is preposterous. The unions wanted sick leave, because under the current system, employees were scheduled weeks in advance with zero margin. If the employee was sick, they had to ask for PTO which would get denied because of lack of notice and any margin (other employees to cover the job)
- danielmarkbruce 1y ago
  When a company loses money year after year it goes bankrupt. The company disappears. The workers lose their jobs. It is important for a company to earn a profit. You'll find companies like google and facebook, who are making fat profits.... pay fat salaries to their workers.
  - sofixa 1y ago
    > When a company loses money year after year it goes bankrupt. The company disappears. The workers lose their jobs. If the company operates in such razor thin margins that it can't provide for sick leave for employees, something is terribly wrong. > It is important for a company to earn a profit. You'll find companies like google and facebook, who are making fat profits.... pay fat salaries to their workers And you'll find that most companies pay as little as they can get away with. Google and Meta need to compete to get a limited (until recently) amounts of top talent. A railway couldn't care less about the employees.
    - danielmarkbruce 1y ago
      It's called competition - it's the reason you get to sit there and type away on an incredible machine at a very low cost and eat food at a very low cost... The vast majority of businesses are operating on thin margins. Get in the real world, not some fantasy land.
      - sofixa 1y ago
        I'm typing this on a Macbook Pro, which is made by Apple with their net profit margin of 24.3% for Q4 2024. BNSF, one of the companies which is the topic of this conversation, has an operating ratio of 68% for 2024 (how much of their revenue goes towards operational costs). Their net income was $5 billion. They can afford to have a little extra employees to cover fucking sick leave. > Get in the real world, not some fantasy land Get out of a libertrarian's wet dream and look around you, read up a little bit on various companies financials.
Mbwagava 1y ago
[flagged]

The idea that companies should just agree to whatever proposal comes in from a union is preposterous.

postpawl 1y ago

They were negotiating their way up from zero paid sick days per year.

ornornor 1y ago
Crazy this is still a thing nowadays especially in so-called developed economies.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  Nothing crazy about that. It's mostly European countries that have mandatory paid sick leave by law for everyone, as they fought for that right in the post-war times when the economy was booming and the world outside the west less safe from outsourcing, and importing cheap labor less easy, so the perfect storm giving labor most power over employers, something that's not gonna repeat again in the globalized world of today. It was the temporal global exception, not the rule, as the worldwide norm was working people to death for most of history. Companies would gladly give their workers zero benefits if they could get away with it.
danielmarkbruce 1y ago
Compensation packages are just that - a package. Complaining about one individual component in isolation is disingenuous. Unions sent a couple of the big car makers into bankruptcy. They've sent all kinds of companies into bankruptcy - the idea that anything they are suggesting is good by nature is about the same as suggesting communism is good by nature. Sounds pleasant, doesn't work.
- hhghkj 1y ago
  Businesses that can't stay afloat without underpaying workers have a failing business model. Blaming unions for their eventual demise is foolish. Communism and Capitalism are actually quite similar in a sense. Neither of them works well in their purest form, both lead to formation of an oligarchy (party elite,billionaires). Most livable countries in the world mix them in form of free market social democracy.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >Businesses that can't stay afloat without underpaying workers have a failing business model. Yet companies have flourished under that model for decades/centuries. Employers and governments have plenty of levers to make sure workers have no choice but to work while being underpaid.
  - danielmarkbruce 1y ago
    Sure, but you say that as though the union is only representing underpaid workers. In many cases they represent overpaid workers.
- mullingitover 1y ago
  > Unions sent a couple of the big car makers into bankruptcy. It goes both ways, unfortunately. Industry in general couldn't exist without laborers, and it has a long history of brutal abuse and horrific, dangerous working conditions that killed and maimed many. I think it's a cultural problem. We aren't far removed from a time when the general business model was to coercively work people to death to extract every penny of value from them, and that mindset hasn't completely been lost. Workers are callously discarded, not at the doorstep of bankruptcy, but at the first hint that profits might not grow as fast as they could.
  - danielmarkbruce 1y ago
    Yup, it goes both ways. It's not a given that what a company is proposing is good or bad, and it's not a given that what a union is proposing is good or bad. And they negotiate and it is what it is.
mullingitover 1y ago
IIRC they had PTO days which were apportioned pretty generously, but they didn't have sick days broken out separately. This doesn't mean they had less time off in general than the prevailing compensation packages. It was a great talking point for the media. However, TBH having a 'here's a bunch of time off, do what you need to with it' is kinda better than 'here's some time off for you to vacation, but then this other amount is only usable if you're sick, and if you're not sick it's money left on the table.'

sofixa 1y ago

The idea that profits are more important than basic humanity is preposterous. The unions wanted sick leave, because under the current system, employees were scheduled weeks in advance with zero margin. If the employee was sick, they had to ask for PTO which would get denied because of lack of notice and any margin (other employees to cover the job)

danielmarkbruce 1y ago
When a company loses money year after year it goes bankrupt. The company disappears. The workers lose their jobs. It is important for a company to earn a profit. You'll find companies like google and facebook, who are making fat profits.... pay fat salaries to their workers.
- sofixa 1y ago
  > When a company loses money year after year it goes bankrupt. The company disappears. The workers lose their jobs. If the company operates in such razor thin margins that it can't provide for sick leave for employees, something is terribly wrong. > It is important for a company to earn a profit. You'll find companies like google and facebook, who are making fat profits.... pay fat salaries to their workers And you'll find that most companies pay as little as they can get away with. Google and Meta need to compete to get a limited (until recently) amounts of top talent. A railway couldn't care less about the employees.
  - danielmarkbruce 1y ago
    It's called competition - it's the reason you get to sit there and type away on an incredible machine at a very low cost and eat food at a very low cost... The vast majority of businesses are operating on thin margins. Get in the real world, not some fantasy land.
    - sofixa 1y ago
      I'm typing this on a Macbook Pro, which is made by Apple with their net profit margin of 24.3% for Q4 2024. BNSF, one of the companies which is the topic of this conversation, has an operating ratio of 68% for 2024 (how much of their revenue goes towards operational costs). Their net income was $5 billion. They can afford to have a little extra employees to cover fucking sick leave. > Get in the real world, not some fantasy land Get out of a libertrarian's wet dream and look around you, read up a little bit on various companies financials.

Mbwagava 1y ago

[flagged]