4 ms·

Another problem you haven't mentioned is the level of union control in the industry. Which is great as far as protecting jobs and salaries for existing controll

Another problem you haven't mentioned is the level of union control in the industry. Which is great as far as protecting jobs and salaries for existing controllers but it makes getting a desirable position difficult for a new graduate. From your comment it sounds like they just get dumped with the least desirable location until they've climbed high enough up the totem pole to get a good job.

throwaway48476 1y ago
Most ATCs spend their whole career at one or two towers. 'Desireable' in the case of graduates is usually wherever they or their family was living when they got hired. The union doesn't have any say in tower assignment.
sandworm101 1y ago
>> a desirable position difficult for a new graduate. These generally are not positions that people compete for across the nation. Once in a particular airspace, controllers will generally stay in that airspace. An outsider unfamiliar with an airspace would be at significant disadvantage to any local.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  > >> a desirable position difficult for a new graduate. This is an interesting example of a mangled quote. It's a perfectly grammatical English string. But in the phrase "a desirable position difficult for a new graduate", what's difficult for a new graduate is the position. In the sentence you pulled the quote from, what's difficult for a new graduate is the getting, a word omitted from your quote. Something similar has happened with "nullius in verba", which is purported to be a quote from Latin, but is actually a selection of unrelated words from a larger sentence in Latin.
RandomBacon 1y ago
U.S. ATC here. I don't think you know what you're talking about: the union is doing nothing for our salaries. The union has no say on where new graduates get placed. Our union is a joke. They send emails saying they're "monitoring the situation" instead of talking with the media stating our case for better working conditions. Our salaries have not kept up with the industry. Do not use this to try to push an anti-union agenda.
fallingknife 1y ago
I really want to like unions. They make all the sense in the world in principle. But in practice they always seem to end up centered around this "pay your dues" climb the ladder bullshit.
- cmurf 1y ago
  Works in Denmark. No statutory minimum wage, wages determined by collective bargaining agreement.
  - Taikonerd 1y ago
    Indeed. There are all sorts of models for how a unions should work. I'm not surprised that some models work much better than others.
    - mistrial9 1y ago
      In the United States 100 years ago, there was a real political concern about the spread of socialist revolution, with labor unions in the center of that. There was a premeditated action through politics and business in the USA to remove socialist union leadership, and build strong hierarchical management that was politically predictable. Many of the eager candidates for this kind of structure were Mafia-connected. When actual organized crime had the opportunity, multiple family fortunes were built on control of Unions. This is very well documented but the language that is used will vary by source. Essentially the USA made a political choice to negotiate with and on occasion criminally prosecute Mafia-related leadership in national labor unions, instead of "allowing" the uncertainty of committed socialist labor leaders.
- Enginerrrd 1y ago
  I think one of the keys to a good union is to make elected union positions unpaid
anonymars 1y ago
Ronald Reagan is laughing at the notion of a powerful ATC union (PATCO 1981 Strike)

throwaway48476 1y ago

Most ATCs spend their whole career at one or two towers. 'Desireable' in the case of graduates is usually wherever they or their family was living when they got hired. The union doesn't have any say in tower assignment.

sandworm101 1y ago

>> a desirable position difficult for a new graduate. These generally are not positions that people compete for across the nation. Once in a particular airspace, controllers will generally stay in that airspace. An outsider unfamiliar with an airspace would be at significant disadvantage to any local.

thaumasiotes 1y ago
> >> a desirable position difficult for a new graduate. This is an interesting example of a mangled quote. It's a perfectly grammatical English string. But in the phrase "a desirable position difficult for a new graduate", what's difficult for a new graduate is the position. In the sentence you pulled the quote from, what's difficult for a new graduate is the getting, a word omitted from your quote. Something similar has happened with "nullius in verba", which is purported to be a quote from Latin, but is actually a selection of unrelated words from a larger sentence in Latin.

RandomBacon 1y ago

U.S. ATC here. I don't think you know what you're talking about: the union is doing nothing for our salaries. The union has no say on where new graduates get placed. Our union is a joke. They send emails saying they're "monitoring the situation" instead of talking with the media stating our case for better working conditions. Our salaries have not kept up with the industry. Do not use this to try to push an anti-union agenda.

fallingknife 1y ago

I really want to like unions. They make all the sense in the world in principle. But in practice they always seem to end up centered around this "pay your dues" climb the ladder bullshit.

cmurf 1y ago
Works in Denmark. No statutory minimum wage, wages determined by collective bargaining agreement.
- Taikonerd 1y ago
  Indeed. There are all sorts of models for how a unions should work. I'm not surprised that some models work much better than others.
  - mistrial9 1y ago
    In the United States 100 years ago, there was a real political concern about the spread of socialist revolution, with labor unions in the center of that. There was a premeditated action through politics and business in the USA to remove socialist union leadership, and build strong hierarchical management that was politically predictable. Many of the eager candidates for this kind of structure were Mafia-connected. When actual organized crime had the opportunity, multiple family fortunes were built on control of Unions. This is very well documented but the language that is used will vary by source. Essentially the USA made a political choice to negotiate with and on occasion criminally prosecute Mafia-related leadership in national labor unions, instead of "allowing" the uncertainty of committed socialist labor leaders.
Enginerrrd 1y ago
I think one of the keys to a good union is to make elected union positions unpaid

anonymars 1y ago

Ronald Reagan is laughing at the notion of a powerful ATC union (PATCO 1981 Strike)