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One of the biggest problems with ATC hiring is that location assignments happen after trainees pass the academy. A lot of the academy graduates quit when they g

One of the biggest problems with ATC hiring is that location assignments happen after trainees pass the academy. A lot of the academy graduates quit when they get an assignment they don't like. It's not like the military where they can force people. The trainee pay also sucks so the prospect of getting sent somewhere undesirable and then barely being able to afford it just isn't attractive. If they would hire based on location like they used to graduates wouldn't quit as often. The other big problem is Obama changed the hiring test from testing intelligence to testing personality in a bid to increase diversity. There was a lawsuit over this. The effect was academy failure rates soared and because class sizes are fixed there was a shortfall in the number of graduates making it to towers to train.

FridayoLeary 1y ago
Another problem you haven't mentioned is the level of union control in the industry. Which is great as far as protecting jobs and salaries for existing controllers but it makes getting a desirable position difficult for a new graduate. From your comment it sounds like they just get dumped with the least desirable location until they've climbed high enough up the totem pole to get a good job.
- throwaway48476 1y ago
  Most ATCs spend their whole career at one or two towers. 'Desireable' in the case of graduates is usually wherever they or their family was living when they got hired. The union doesn't have any say in tower assignment.
- sandworm101 1y ago
  >> a desirable position difficult for a new graduate. These generally are not positions that people compete for across the nation. Once in a particular airspace, controllers will generally stay in that airspace. An outsider unfamiliar with an airspace would be at significant disadvantage to any local.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    > >> a desirable position difficult for a new graduate. This is an interesting example of a mangled quote. It's a perfectly grammatical English string. But in the phrase "a desirable position difficult for a new graduate", what's difficult for a new graduate is the position. In the sentence you pulled the quote from, what's difficult for a new graduate is the getting, a word omitted from your quote. Something similar has happened with "nullius in verba", which is purported to be a quote from Latin, but is actually a selection of unrelated words from a larger sentence in Latin.
- RandomBacon 1y ago
  U.S. ATC here. I don't think you know what you're talking about: the union is doing nothing for our salaries. The union has no say on where new graduates get placed. Our union is a joke. They send emails saying they're "monitoring the situation" instead of talking with the media stating our case for better working conditions. Our salaries have not kept up with the industry. Do not use this to try to push an anti-union agenda.
- fallingknife 1y ago
  I really want to like unions. They make all the sense in the world in principle. But in practice they always seem to end up centered around this "pay your dues" climb the ladder bullshit.
  - cmurf 1y ago
    Works in Denmark. No statutory minimum wage, wages determined by collective bargaining agreement.
    - Taikonerd 1y ago
      Indeed. There are all sorts of models for how a unions should work. I'm not surprised that some models work much better than others.
      - mistrial9 1y ago
        In the United States 100 years ago, there was a real political concern about the spread of socialist revolution, with labor unions in the center of that. There was a premeditated action through politics and business in the USA to remove socialist union leadership, and build strong hierarchical management that was politically predictable. Many of the eager candidates for this kind of structure were Mafia-connected. When actual organized crime had the opportunity, multiple family fortunes were built on control of Unions. This is very well documented but the language that is used will vary by source. Essentially the USA made a political choice to negotiate with and on occasion criminally prosecute Mafia-related leadership in national labor unions, instead of "allowing" the uncertainty of committed socialist labor leaders.
  - Enginerrrd 1y ago
    I think one of the keys to a good union is to make elected union positions unpaid
- anonymars 1y ago
  Ronald Reagan is laughing at the notion of a powerful ATC union (PATCO 1981 Strike)
philwelch 1y ago
> The other big problem is Obama changed the hiring test from testing intelligence to testing personality in a bid to increase diversity. There was a lawsuit over this. It was even worse than that. What they actually did was write up a phony “personality test” and distribute the answer key to applicants who were members of preferred racial organizations. https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-faas-hiring https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...
- chillingeffect 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - nichohel 1y ago
    Why would you put the years in hex, except to obscure? The tracingwoodgrains report is compelling, people should listen to it.
    - chillingeffect 1y ago
      Just for pure whimsy and it's hacker news and the year is close to 0x800 so I wanted to see if I could count backwards in hex in my head. The first half of tracing woodgrains was on-point. The 2nd half diverged into half-truth. They had a chance in court to provide evidence and couldn't. The case was dismissed. Those looking to score points against DEIA based on this case have to take the L gracefully.
  - anonymars 1y ago
    "Briggs et al vs. FAA 0x7df" does not appear to be a real court case. Is this a bot? Maybe you're referring to "Brigida et al vs Pete Buttigieg, Secretary US Dept of Transportation"? Motion to dismiss for which was denied in 2021? (https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/district-of-columbia/dcdce/1:2016cv02227/182656/130/ https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/distric...) "As of February 2025, this case remains ongoing"? (https://clearinghouse.net/case/45988/?doc_page=2&docket_page=4#document-list https://clearinghouse.net/case/45988/?doc_page=2&docket_page...)
decimalenough 1y ago
This is indeed a thing that happened, but blaming "Obama" personally for it is absurd, it was entirely the FAA's fuckup.
- koolba 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - anonymars 1y ago
    This is a great post that lays it out. I suggest putting tribal politics aside and reading it, you can see in black and white that the FAA, under Obama, consciously weighed diversity over performance, and royally screwed the ATC hiring pipeline. "Pobody's nerfect" https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-faas-hiring https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...
    - Aloisius 1y ago
      Eh. The lawsuit is still ongoing (for 9 years now!). The article summarizes the plaintiffs' argument and conjecture as if it was a finding of fact which is a bit disingenuous.
      - anonymars 1y ago
        I think the FAA slide which discusses "how much adverse performance are we willing to sacrifice for diversity" is pretty damning
        Aloisius 1y ago
        What could be potentially damning is the answer, not the question. Getting clarity and avoiding potentially incorrect assumptions by asking questions is something professionals should do. I would very much like to see the rest of the deck for context.
Havoc 1y ago
Why the hell would you test for personality or intelligence. Surely the key skill here is calm under pressure and stress?
- derbOac 1y ago
  > Surely the key skill here is calm under pressure and stress? ... which is personality. Not trying to defend or not defend what actually happened, but there's growing use of personality measures in various vocations for this very reason.
  - QuarterReptile 1y ago
    The actual, as another poster provided, was a racist hiring procedure hidden in a test and apparently designed to rug-pull all the trainees paying their own way in training. Apart from that, the intelligence is certainly needed, but with a heavy dose of spatial reasoning. the right kind of 'calm under pressure' is an excellent command of the details of ATC; anything else here is just lethal apathy. https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-faas-hiring https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...
- throwaway48476 1y ago
  It was just an artificial way to select the 'right' color of candidate. The link has the full details. https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-faas-hiring https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...
  - paulyy_y 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - Maxious 1y ago
      https://mslegal.org/cases/brigida-v-faa/ https://mslegal.org/cases/brigida-v-faa/ https://www.travelpulse.com/news/airlines-airports/lawsuit-alleges-racial-discrimination-by-faa-in-air-traffic-controller-hiring https://www.travelpulse.com/news/airlines-airports/lawsuit-a... https://simpleflying.com/faa-air-traffic-controller-applicants-lawsuit/ https://simpleflying.com/faa-air-traffic-controller-applican...
jmull 1y ago
[flagged]
- throwaway48476 1y ago
  There's a wave of ATC retirements now because they were all hired at the same time when Reagan fired the ATCs. Bad policy can have long lasting effects.

FridayoLeary 1y ago

Another problem you haven't mentioned is the level of union control in the industry. Which is great as far as protecting jobs and salaries for existing controllers but it makes getting a desirable position difficult for a new graduate. From your comment it sounds like they just get dumped with the least desirable location until they've climbed high enough up the totem pole to get a good job.

throwaway48476 1y ago
Most ATCs spend their whole career at one or two towers. 'Desireable' in the case of graduates is usually wherever they or their family was living when they got hired. The union doesn't have any say in tower assignment.
sandworm101 1y ago
>> a desirable position difficult for a new graduate. These generally are not positions that people compete for across the nation. Once in a particular airspace, controllers will generally stay in that airspace. An outsider unfamiliar with an airspace would be at significant disadvantage to any local.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  > >> a desirable position difficult for a new graduate. This is an interesting example of a mangled quote. It's a perfectly grammatical English string. But in the phrase "a desirable position difficult for a new graduate", what's difficult for a new graduate is the position. In the sentence you pulled the quote from, what's difficult for a new graduate is the getting, a word omitted from your quote. Something similar has happened with "nullius in verba", which is purported to be a quote from Latin, but is actually a selection of unrelated words from a larger sentence in Latin.
RandomBacon 1y ago
U.S. ATC here. I don't think you know what you're talking about: the union is doing nothing for our salaries. The union has no say on where new graduates get placed. Our union is a joke. They send emails saying they're "monitoring the situation" instead of talking with the media stating our case for better working conditions. Our salaries have not kept up with the industry. Do not use this to try to push an anti-union agenda.
fallingknife 1y ago
I really want to like unions. They make all the sense in the world in principle. But in practice they always seem to end up centered around this "pay your dues" climb the ladder bullshit.
- cmurf 1y ago
  Works in Denmark. No statutory minimum wage, wages determined by collective bargaining agreement.
  - Taikonerd 1y ago
    Indeed. There are all sorts of models for how a unions should work. I'm not surprised that some models work much better than others.
    - mistrial9 1y ago
      In the United States 100 years ago, there was a real political concern about the spread of socialist revolution, with labor unions in the center of that. There was a premeditated action through politics and business in the USA to remove socialist union leadership, and build strong hierarchical management that was politically predictable. Many of the eager candidates for this kind of structure were Mafia-connected. When actual organized crime had the opportunity, multiple family fortunes were built on control of Unions. This is very well documented but the language that is used will vary by source. Essentially the USA made a political choice to negotiate with and on occasion criminally prosecute Mafia-related leadership in national labor unions, instead of "allowing" the uncertainty of committed socialist labor leaders.
- Enginerrrd 1y ago
  I think one of the keys to a good union is to make elected union positions unpaid
anonymars 1y ago
Ronald Reagan is laughing at the notion of a powerful ATC union (PATCO 1981 Strike)

philwelch 1y ago

> The other big problem is Obama changed the hiring test from testing intelligence to testing personality in a bid to increase diversity. There was a lawsuit over this. It was even worse than that. What they actually did was write up a phony “personality test” and distribute the answer key to applicants who were members of preferred racial organizations. https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-faas-hiring https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...

chillingeffect 1y ago
[flagged]
- nichohel 1y ago
  Why would you put the years in hex, except to obscure? The tracingwoodgrains report is compelling, people should listen to it.
  - chillingeffect 1y ago
    Just for pure whimsy and it's hacker news and the year is close to 0x800 so I wanted to see if I could count backwards in hex in my head. The first half of tracing woodgrains was on-point. The 2nd half diverged into half-truth. They had a chance in court to provide evidence and couldn't. The case was dismissed. Those looking to score points against DEIA based on this case have to take the L gracefully.
- anonymars 1y ago
  "Briggs et al vs. FAA 0x7df" does not appear to be a real court case. Is this a bot? Maybe you're referring to "Brigida et al vs Pete Buttigieg, Secretary US Dept of Transportation"? Motion to dismiss for which was denied in 2021? (https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/district-of-columbia/dcdce/1:2016cv02227/182656/130/ https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/distric...) "As of February 2025, this case remains ongoing"? (https://clearinghouse.net/case/45988/?doc_page=2&docket_page=4#document-list https://clearinghouse.net/case/45988/?doc_page=2&docket_page...)

decimalenough 1y ago

This is indeed a thing that happened, but blaming "Obama" personally for it is absurd, it was entirely the FAA's fuckup.

koolba 1y ago
[flagged]
- anonymars 1y ago
  This is a great post that lays it out. I suggest putting tribal politics aside and reading it, you can see in black and white that the FAA, under Obama, consciously weighed diversity over performance, and royally screwed the ATC hiring pipeline. "Pobody's nerfect" https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-faas-hiring https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...
  - Aloisius 1y ago
    Eh. The lawsuit is still ongoing (for 9 years now!). The article summarizes the plaintiffs' argument and conjecture as if it was a finding of fact which is a bit disingenuous.
    - anonymars 1y ago
      I think the FAA slide which discusses "how much adverse performance are we willing to sacrifice for diversity" is pretty damning
      - Aloisius 1y ago
        What could be potentially damning is the answer, not the question. Getting clarity and avoiding potentially incorrect assumptions by asking questions is something professionals should do. I would very much like to see the rest of the deck for context.

Havoc 1y ago

Why the hell would you test for personality or intelligence. Surely the key skill here is calm under pressure and stress?

derbOac 1y ago
> Surely the key skill here is calm under pressure and stress? ... which is personality. Not trying to defend or not defend what actually happened, but there's growing use of personality measures in various vocations for this very reason.
- QuarterReptile 1y ago
  The actual, as another poster provided, was a racist hiring procedure hidden in a test and apparently designed to rug-pull all the trainees paying their own way in training. Apart from that, the intelligence is certainly needed, but with a heavy dose of spatial reasoning. the right kind of 'calm under pressure' is an excellent command of the details of ATC; anything else here is just lethal apathy. https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-faas-hiring https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...
throwaway48476 1y ago
It was just an artificial way to select the 'right' color of candidate. The link has the full details. https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-faas-hiring https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...
- paulyy_y 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Maxious 1y ago
    https://mslegal.org/cases/brigida-v-faa/ https://mslegal.org/cases/brigida-v-faa/ https://www.travelpulse.com/news/airlines-airports/lawsuit-alleges-racial-discrimination-by-faa-in-air-traffic-controller-hiring https://www.travelpulse.com/news/airlines-airports/lawsuit-a... https://simpleflying.com/faa-air-traffic-controller-applicants-lawsuit/ https://simpleflying.com/faa-air-traffic-controller-applican...

jmull 1y ago

[flagged]

throwaway48476 1y ago
There's a wave of ATC retirements now because they were all hired at the same time when Reagan fired the ATCs. Bad policy can have long lasting effects.