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I'm having a hard time understanding how we can move the bulk of our energy to renewables without some kind of massive storage system. The wind can die for lon

by timmg 1y ago

I'm having a hard time understanding how we can move the bulk of our energy to renewables without some kind of massive storage system. The wind can die for long periods. It can get abnormally cloudy for long periods. There's nighttime and winter. I'm no expert, but is there any storage system that is practical that can store the amount of energy we'd need to have most (all) electricity come from renewables?

lxgr 1y ago
Some hydroelectric plants can pump water back up and both absorb excess supply and provide stabilization during demand spikes. I have no idea if it’s feasible to fill longer-term gaps during extended cloudy/windless days and nights using that alone, though. Other than that, there are already large-scale battery plants deployed in some cities. Another approach is to control the demand side: When air conditioning or heating with electricity, minutes usually don’t matter, and dropping/providing extra load at very short notice should be feasible in a smart grid.
- padjo 1y ago
  It is entirely infeasible to used pumped hydro alone to solve our energy storage problems. They’re a great component of the solution but they’re big expensive environmentally disruptive projects and there are limited suitable sites.
  - grues-dinner 1y ago
    They're also quite inefficient (75% ish, which is not horrible, but still something) as you lose energy both in pumping and generation. So the more you use them, the more energy you need in the first place, so you try not to use them too much. And the worst thing for a capital intensive business is to not get used much. Even with the arbitrage advantage, it takes a long time to pay it off. The grid may pay a "retainer" to sweeten the deal but you can't just build more and expect them all to get that benefit. It's similar to the problem that "use excess energy to electrolyse water into hydrogen" has: no-one running a multi-billion electrolyser really wants to run it a few hours a day only when the grid is oversupplied. And in top of that, risk being cut off at the knees decades before breakeven if someone comes along with a cheaper/more profitable way to deal with the oversupply.
Tagbert 1y ago
That’s why Grid Storage is a major topic in power generation and renewables. The technology and economics are evolving. A lot of people are working on finding a storage solution that is both durable and economical. One solution is probably not going to solve for all situations. In the meantime, load sharing is used to distribute power across a power grid for cases where one area has more power and another area needs power. For instance, wind may die out in one area but over larger areas there are usually still areas with wind. It’s harder with solar, of course.
- asdefghyk 1y ago
  RE "....load sharing is used to distribute power across a power grid ....." TO distribute power across the grid - on a large scale fashion , would require a new power ( very expensive) power distribution network. The base problem with renewable solar and wind is its not reliable. an have outages for SEVERAL days
padjo 1y ago
We can do the bulk of it, i.e. more than 50%, by geographic and modal aggregation fairly easily. Doing all of it from renewables is still an unsolved problem that would require better energy storage.
- bryanlarsen 1y ago
  There's always wind or sun somewhere in Europe, there has never been an hour without both across the entire continent in the last 30 years.
  - Animats 1y ago
    > There's always wind or sun somewhere in Europe. Not necessarily enough wind to be useful. If you look at graphs of wind turbine output across entire large power grids, you see 4:1 variations in a day over the PJM and CAISO regions. That's irrelevant to this blackout, anyway. This blackout occurred during a period when supply far exceeded demand.
Someone 1y ago
Having enormous synchronized grids helps a bit with that. It’s highly unlikely to be abnormally cloudy/calm over the whole of Europe, for example, so Europe’s large grid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe_Synchronous_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe_Synchronous...) can be used to move electricity from where there’s excess energy from solar or wind to where there’s a deficit. That requires large capacity connections, though that aren’t everywhere yet.I understand electricity was restored in the south of France much more rapidly last week than in Spain and Portugal because it’s much better connected to the rest of Europe.
- JetSpiegel 1y ago
  The reason why the Iberian grid is not better connected to France might have something to do with French Nuclear not wanting to be bankrupted by cheap renewables from southern countries, this was the word on the street a ehi'e back, when the push for renewables in Spain in Portugal was starting up. This is a political problem, having Mitteleuropa depend on power from Putin is apparently OK, but on lazy southerners is verboten. Hopefully this blackout changes that (but I'm not holding my breath).
  - Someone 1y ago
    I would think the original reasons are the Pyrenees and the relatively low population density around it. If you look at the European road and rail networks, you’ll find France and Spain aren’t well-connected, either.
    - JetSpiegel 1y ago
      The network connection doesn't really depend on the population density around there. I'm not saying it's a simple technical problem, but it's not insurmountable either.
bryanlarsen 1y ago
We have very detailed continental weather readings for over a century and can build very good statistical models. So you just ask a supercomputer to find the lowest cost solution for 99.99% electrical coverage without using any carbon sources. It's quite possible -- over the previous 30 years we've never had an hour where there was no wind & sun anywhere in Europe. So we could theoretically solve it without storage, but that would require an insane amount of overbuild and interconnect. Imagine supplying all of Europe's electricity needs with just wind power from the south shore of Ireland. Adding a few days worth of storage reduces the interconnect & overbuild needs dramatically, putting 99.99% carbon free within the realm of the possible.
- timmg 1y ago
  > So you just ask a supercomputer to find the lowest cost solution for 99.99% electrical coverage without using any carbon sources. Sure... but my expectation is that that 90% solution would include an unreasonable amount of storage (assuming you want most/all renewables). I guess was my point. > It's quite possible -- over the previous 30 years we've never had an hour where there was no wind & sun anywhere in Europe. But "some" wind or sun is not enough to support the whole grid.
  - bryanlarsen 1y ago
    I wouldn't assume all or even most renewables. I would assume you'd continue to use existing hydro and nuclear. The nuclear would help a little, but the hydro helps a lot. It's capacity can be saved for times when wind and solar are low. In that scenario 90% is very easy to hit. A couple of hours worth of storage, maybe. > But "some" wind or sun is not enough to support the whole grid. The less there is, the more you have to over build to compensate. Doesn't make it impossible.
VagabundoP 1y ago
This is my favourite tech as its cheap and safe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_redox_flow_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_redox_flow_battery Its commercially available right now as well. Its not as efficient as lithium or as energy dense, but that doesnt matter if you're putting them in wind/solar farms.

by timmg 1y ago

lxgr 1y ago

Some hydroelectric plants can pump water back up and both absorb excess supply and provide stabilization during demand spikes. I have no idea if it’s feasible to fill longer-term gaps during extended cloudy/windless days and nights using that alone, though. Other than that, there are already large-scale battery plants deployed in some cities. Another approach is to control the demand side: When air conditioning or heating with electricity, minutes usually don’t matter, and dropping/providing extra load at very short notice should be feasible in a smart grid.

padjo 1y ago
It is entirely infeasible to used pumped hydro alone to solve our energy storage problems. They’re a great component of the solution but they’re big expensive environmentally disruptive projects and there are limited suitable sites.
- grues-dinner 1y ago
  They're also quite inefficient (75% ish, which is not horrible, but still something) as you lose energy both in pumping and generation. So the more you use them, the more energy you need in the first place, so you try not to use them too much. And the worst thing for a capital intensive business is to not get used much. Even with the arbitrage advantage, it takes a long time to pay it off. The grid may pay a "retainer" to sweeten the deal but you can't just build more and expect them all to get that benefit. It's similar to the problem that "use excess energy to electrolyse water into hydrogen" has: no-one running a multi-billion electrolyser really wants to run it a few hours a day only when the grid is oversupplied. And in top of that, risk being cut off at the knees decades before breakeven if someone comes along with a cheaper/more profitable way to deal with the oversupply.

Tagbert 1y ago

That’s why Grid Storage is a major topic in power generation and renewables. The technology and economics are evolving. A lot of people are working on finding a storage solution that is both durable and economical. One solution is probably not going to solve for all situations. In the meantime, load sharing is used to distribute power across a power grid for cases where one area has more power and another area needs power. For instance, wind may die out in one area but over larger areas there are usually still areas with wind. It’s harder with solar, of course.

asdefghyk 1y ago
RE "....load sharing is used to distribute power across a power grid ....." TO distribute power across the grid - on a large scale fashion , would require a new power ( very expensive) power distribution network. The base problem with renewable solar and wind is its not reliable. an have outages for SEVERAL days

padjo 1y ago

We can do the bulk of it, i.e. more than 50%, by geographic and modal aggregation fairly easily. Doing all of it from renewables is still an unsolved problem that would require better energy storage.

bryanlarsen 1y ago
There's always wind or sun somewhere in Europe, there has never been an hour without both across the entire continent in the last 30 years.
- Animats 1y ago
  > There's always wind or sun somewhere in Europe. Not necessarily enough wind to be useful. If you look at graphs of wind turbine output across entire large power grids, you see 4:1 variations in a day over the PJM and CAISO regions. That's irrelevant to this blackout, anyway. This blackout occurred during a period when supply far exceeded demand.

Someone 1y ago

Having enormous synchronized grids helps a bit with that. It’s highly unlikely to be abnormally cloudy/calm over the whole of Europe, for example, so Europe’s large grid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe_Synchronous_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe_Synchronous...) can be used to move electricity from where there’s excess energy from solar or wind to where there’s a deficit. That requires large capacity connections, though that aren’t everywhere yet.I understand electricity was restored in the south of France much more rapidly last week than in Spain and Portugal because it’s much better connected to the rest of Europe.

JetSpiegel 1y ago
The reason why the Iberian grid is not better connected to France might have something to do with French Nuclear not wanting to be bankrupted by cheap renewables from southern countries, this was the word on the street a ehi'e back, when the push for renewables in Spain in Portugal was starting up. This is a political problem, having Mitteleuropa depend on power from Putin is apparently OK, but on lazy southerners is verboten. Hopefully this blackout changes that (but I'm not holding my breath).
- Someone 1y ago
  I would think the original reasons are the Pyrenees and the relatively low population density around it. If you look at the European road and rail networks, you’ll find France and Spain aren’t well-connected, either.
  - JetSpiegel 1y ago
    The network connection doesn't really depend on the population density around there. I'm not saying it's a simple technical problem, but it's not insurmountable either.

bryanlarsen 1y ago

We have very detailed continental weather readings for over a century and can build very good statistical models. So you just ask a supercomputer to find the lowest cost solution for 99.99% electrical coverage without using any carbon sources. It's quite possible -- over the previous 30 years we've never had an hour where there was no wind & sun anywhere in Europe. So we could theoretically solve it without storage, but that would require an insane amount of overbuild and interconnect. Imagine supplying all of Europe's electricity needs with just wind power from the south shore of Ireland. Adding a few days worth of storage reduces the interconnect & overbuild needs dramatically, putting 99.99% carbon free within the realm of the possible.

timmg 1y ago
> So you just ask a supercomputer to find the lowest cost solution for 99.99% electrical coverage without using any carbon sources. Sure... but my expectation is that that 90% solution would include an unreasonable amount of storage (assuming you want most/all renewables). I guess was my point. > It's quite possible -- over the previous 30 years we've never had an hour where there was no wind & sun anywhere in Europe. But "some" wind or sun is not enough to support the whole grid.
- bryanlarsen 1y ago
  I wouldn't assume all or even most renewables. I would assume you'd continue to use existing hydro and nuclear. The nuclear would help a little, but the hydro helps a lot. It's capacity can be saved for times when wind and solar are low. In that scenario 90% is very easy to hit. A couple of hours worth of storage, maybe. > But "some" wind or sun is not enough to support the whole grid. The less there is, the more you have to over build to compensate. Doesn't make it impossible.

VagabundoP 1y ago

This is my favourite tech as its cheap and safe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_redox_flow_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_redox_flow_battery Its commercially available right now as well. Its not as efficient as lithium or as energy dense, but that doesnt matter if you're putting them in wind/solar farms.