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> Time and again we prove that we don't actually want that. That's the capitalist system. Unions successfully fought to decrease the working day to 8 hrs.

_heimdall 1y ago
I don't think we can so easily pin it on capitalism. Capitalism brings incentives that drive work hours and expectations up for sure, but that's not the only thing in play. Workers are often looking to make more money, take more responsibility, or build some kind of name or reputation for themselves. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but that goal also incentivizes to work harder and longer. There's no one size fits all description for workers, everyone's different. The same is true for the whole system though, it doesn't roll up to any one cause.
- tehjoker 1y ago
  What you say is true, but the dominant effect in the system driving it towards more exertion than anyone would find desirable is the profit incentive of owners to drive their workers harder.
  - _heimdall 1y ago
    How do you narrow it down to capitalism as the root cause though? It seems like a reasonable guess, but our entire system is capitalist - we have no way to isolate or compare against to see how a roughly similar system would play out without capitalism.
    - tehjoker 1y ago
      We have seen other systems, socialist systems, that are much kinder to workers and give them more security and free time. The capitalists managed to destroy most competing examples and forced the remaining ones to somewhat liberalize via the IMF and other trade regimes, to make it appear as if there is only one choice. Not so!
Izkata 1y ago
Unions had early wins that mostly either didn't go anywhere, or the companies worked around. The real win that normalized it was for capitalistic reasons, when Henry Ford shortened the workday/week because he wanted his workers to buy (and have reason to buy) his cars. Combined with other changes, he figured he'd retain workers better and reduce mistakes from fatigue, and when he remained competitive others followed suit.
- tehjoker 1y ago
  This is a common fable and it doesn't make sense. He increased wages to decrease turnover. It's honestly crazy that Fordist propaganda is still circulating today. The dude was a pro-Nazi freak. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/04/the-story-of-henry-fords-5-a-day-wages-its-not-what-you-think/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/04/the-stor... https://allthatsinteresting.com/henry-ford-nazi https://allthatsinteresting.com/henry-ford-nazi
  - Izkata 1y ago
    Him being a Nazi sympathizer has nothing to do with this. Also you verified one thing I said and didn't refute the point of my comment about the workday/week.

_heimdall 1y ago

I don't think we can so easily pin it on capitalism. Capitalism brings incentives that drive work hours and expectations up for sure, but that's not the only thing in play. Workers are often looking to make more money, take more responsibility, or build some kind of name or reputation for themselves. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but that goal also incentivizes to work harder and longer. There's no one size fits all description for workers, everyone's different. The same is true for the whole system though, it doesn't roll up to any one cause.

tehjoker 1y ago
What you say is true, but the dominant effect in the system driving it towards more exertion than anyone would find desirable is the profit incentive of owners to drive their workers harder.
- _heimdall 1y ago
  How do you narrow it down to capitalism as the root cause though? It seems like a reasonable guess, but our entire system is capitalist - we have no way to isolate or compare against to see how a roughly similar system would play out without capitalism.
  - tehjoker 1y ago
    We have seen other systems, socialist systems, that are much kinder to workers and give them more security and free time. The capitalists managed to destroy most competing examples and forced the remaining ones to somewhat liberalize via the IMF and other trade regimes, to make it appear as if there is only one choice. Not so!

Izkata 1y ago

Unions had early wins that mostly either didn't go anywhere, or the companies worked around. The real win that normalized it was for capitalistic reasons, when Henry Ford shortened the workday/week because he wanted his workers to buy (and have reason to buy) his cars. Combined with other changes, he figured he'd retain workers better and reduce mistakes from fatigue, and when he remained competitive others followed suit.

tehjoker 1y ago
This is a common fable and it doesn't make sense. He increased wages to decrease turnover. It's honestly crazy that Fordist propaganda is still circulating today. The dude was a pro-Nazi freak. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/04/the-story-of-henry-fords-5-a-day-wages-its-not-what-you-think/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/04/the-stor... https://allthatsinteresting.com/henry-ford-nazi https://allthatsinteresting.com/henry-ford-nazi
- Izkata 1y ago
  Him being a Nazi sympathizer has nothing to do with this. Also you verified one thing I said and didn't refute the point of my comment about the workday/week.