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> what I've come to understand is that this just isn't going to help. This is false though. Austin, Texas built a lot of apartments and then rents fell 22%. T

by davidw 1y ago

> what I've come to understand is that this just isn't going to help. This is false though. Austin, Texas built a lot of apartments and then rents fell 22%. That's a big win for a lot of people seeing lower prices! NYC is not a place that builds very much in proportion to the population. I think that the claim that "supply and demand do not apply to housing" is an extraordinary one, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

jeffbee 1y ago
Recently some socialist lackwit on Twitter was railing that YIMBYs only lowered prices from $600k to $500k. This person apparently did not understand that the difference - $20k up front and $700/mo for 30 years - is the margin between affordable and not affordable for tens of millions of ordinary people.
- davidw 1y ago
  In case anyone reading thinks otherwise: you can absolutely be a socialist and a YIMBY. Maybe your goal is Vienna style housing. The only thing you need to acknowledge is that cities need 'enough' housing.
  - jeffbee 1y ago
    Yeah but there's this entire genre of hammer-and-sickle-in-bio online guy who thinks socialism is about ideals, not the material experience of the proletariat. Those guys think we should outlaw home building until after the revolution.
    - davidw 1y ago
      Yeah, I've seen those people. They remind me of this scene https://youtu.be/tx02tY8ABfA?si=JbSiDMTdkHs5LrOk&t=62 https://youtu.be/tx02tY8ABfA?si=JbSiDMTdkHs5LrOk&t=62 They don't want to take that next small step that will help somebody, they want to change everything all at once.
jmyeet 1y ago
> Austin, Texas built a lot of apartments and then rents fell 22%. This is false. Just look at the chart [1]. All that's happened is some of the pandemic price gouging, something landlords were being sued over [2]. We simply cannot capitalism our way out of this problem. > i think that the claim that "supply and demand do not apply to housing" Where did I say that? Speaking more generally, the idea of a "free market" is a myth, particularly for housing. It's one of the most manipulated and politicized markets there is. But supply and demand do apply and it has been a political goal for decades to ensure that supply will be constrained. [1]: https://www.kut.org/austin/2024-06-13/austin-texas-rent-prices-falling-2024 https://www.kut.org/austin/2024-06-13/austin-texas-rent-pric... [2]: https://www.austinmonitor.com/stories/2025/01/u-s-accuses-six-landlords-of-rent-price-fixing-see-which-apartments-they-own-in-austin/ https://www.austinmonitor.com/stories/2025/01/u-s-accuses-si...
- davidw 1y ago
  Landlords would be happy if rents never fell though. They're not dropping them because "gosh, maybe we charged too much during the pandemic". New housing was built and landlords had to compete for tenants. Dropping prices during a time when inflation is still a thing is a pretty big deal, and very beneficial to thousands of people. The housing market is, indeed, anything but free. That's a core idea behind the YIMBY movement: make it legal to build more kinds of housing, rather than just meet demand by outward sprawl. > But supply and demand do apply and it has been a political goal for decades to ensure that supply will be constrained. That's what YIMBY is about: fighting back against those constraints. They have hugely detrimental consequences for people, the economy and the environment. In terms of "capitalism", I think most YIMBYs are pragmatic - capitalism is the system we have in the US, so we need to leverage it as much as possible to get the housing we need. If we could get Vienna style social housing, I think a lot of YIMBYs would be happy to sign up. You still need Vienna style zoning and building codes to get that, though.
tharmas 1y ago
Maybe Austin is an outlier. They have high property taxes. Or people left because of those taxes Most cities that built a lot of housing saw it bought up by investors.
- davidw 1y ago
  Investors only invest in things with a good return. It's why they don't buy up, say, nails, because the nail makers would just produce a lot more nails to sell to them and they'd be left sitting with a bunch of nails. They invest in housing because it's scarce because we don't build enough of it. And if you look at the actual numbers, large-scale institutional investors just aren't that big a factor. It's another bogeyman for people desperate to avoid the solution to not having enough housing: building more housing. Austin is an example of the market balancing out when allowed to do so.
  - tharmas 1y ago
    Well, in Vancouver Canada, they built tons and tons of condos. But they were mostly bought up by local and overseas investors. In, fact some condo buildings weren't even advertised at all in Canada, only in Asia. I grant the Austin Texas is its own unique situation. Also, developers don't want to build build build housing as that, like you said would help to reduce the price.

by davidw 1y ago

jeffbee 1y ago

Recently some socialist lackwit on Twitter was railing that YIMBYs only lowered prices from $600k to $500k. This person apparently did not understand that the difference - $20k up front and $700/mo for 30 years - is the margin between affordable and not affordable for tens of millions of ordinary people.

davidw 1y ago
In case anyone reading thinks otherwise: you can absolutely be a socialist and a YIMBY. Maybe your goal is Vienna style housing. The only thing you need to acknowledge is that cities need 'enough' housing.
- jeffbee 1y ago
  Yeah but there's this entire genre of hammer-and-sickle-in-bio online guy who thinks socialism is about ideals, not the material experience of the proletariat. Those guys think we should outlaw home building until after the revolution.
  - davidw 1y ago
    Yeah, I've seen those people. They remind me of this scene https://youtu.be/tx02tY8ABfA?si=JbSiDMTdkHs5LrOk&t=62 https://youtu.be/tx02tY8ABfA?si=JbSiDMTdkHs5LrOk&t=62 They don't want to take that next small step that will help somebody, they want to change everything all at once.

jmyeet 1y ago

> Austin, Texas built a lot of apartments and then rents fell 22%. This is false. Just look at the chart [1]. All that's happened is some of the pandemic price gouging, something landlords were being sued over [2]. We simply cannot capitalism our way out of this problem. > i think that the claim that "supply and demand do not apply to housing" Where did I say that? Speaking more generally, the idea of a "free market" is a myth, particularly for housing. It's one of the most manipulated and politicized markets there is. But supply and demand do apply and it has been a political goal for decades to ensure that supply will be constrained. [1]: https://www.kut.org/austin/2024-06-13/austin-texas-rent-prices-falling-2024 https://www.kut.org/austin/2024-06-13/austin-texas-rent-pric... [2]: https://www.austinmonitor.com/stories/2025/01/u-s-accuses-six-landlords-of-rent-price-fixing-see-which-apartments-they-own-in-austin/ https://www.austinmonitor.com/stories/2025/01/u-s-accuses-si...

davidw 1y ago
Landlords would be happy if rents never fell though. They're not dropping them because "gosh, maybe we charged too much during the pandemic". New housing was built and landlords had to compete for tenants. Dropping prices during a time when inflation is still a thing is a pretty big deal, and very beneficial to thousands of people. The housing market is, indeed, anything but free. That's a core idea behind the YIMBY movement: make it legal to build more kinds of housing, rather than just meet demand by outward sprawl. > But supply and demand do apply and it has been a political goal for decades to ensure that supply will be constrained. That's what YIMBY is about: fighting back against those constraints. They have hugely detrimental consequences for people, the economy and the environment. In terms of "capitalism", I think most YIMBYs are pragmatic - capitalism is the system we have in the US, so we need to leverage it as much as possible to get the housing we need. If we could get Vienna style social housing, I think a lot of YIMBYs would be happy to sign up. You still need Vienna style zoning and building codes to get that, though.

tharmas 1y ago

Maybe Austin is an outlier. They have high property taxes. Or people left because of those taxes Most cities that built a lot of housing saw it bought up by investors.

davidw 1y ago
Investors only invest in things with a good return. It's why they don't buy up, say, nails, because the nail makers would just produce a lot more nails to sell to them and they'd be left sitting with a bunch of nails. They invest in housing because it's scarce because we don't build enough of it. And if you look at the actual numbers, large-scale institutional investors just aren't that big a factor. It's another bogeyman for people desperate to avoid the solution to not having enough housing: building more housing. Austin is an example of the market balancing out when allowed to do so.
- tharmas 1y ago
  Well, in Vancouver Canada, they built tons and tons of condos. But they were mostly bought up by local and overseas investors. In, fact some condo buildings weren't even advertised at all in Canada, only in Asia. I grant the Austin Texas is its own unique situation. Also, developers don't want to build build build housing as that, like you said would help to reduce the price.