7 ms·

I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is awesome. E

I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is awesome. Everything we know about human psychology suggests that a disapproving peer group is a strong behavioral deterrent.

jackpirate 14y ago
One of the reasons it's such a strong deterrent is that it is so difficult to confront someone in your peer group for doing something wrong. Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving. Maybe the card system will get people motivated enough to start disapproving, but I doubt it.
- cbs 14y ago
  Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving. Yes, they are. Its just that any one isolated indecent of disapproval doesn't get much attention compared to incidents of scum. I'm not saying the levels of scum are acceptable, just that there is a disparity in which encounters get shared. The disapproval needs more mindshare, and thats why I think it was a smart move that defcon staff embraced the red/yellow cards. Nobody is really going to walk around telling everyone about the time they saw a guy tell another guy to knock it off. The cards on the other hand, they had plenty of people talking. On the whole though, we tend to look out for our own. Stories like this: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3043545&cid=40967929 http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3043545&cid=4096... and this: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3043545&cid=40967585 http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3043545&cid=4096... tend to be much of my 1st hand experience, the worst I know of first hand are people that don't known any better than to stare at someones tits.
  - king_jester 14y ago
    > Yes, they are. Its just that any one isolated indecent of disapproval doesn't get much attention compared to incidents of scum. I'm not saying the levels of scum are acceptable, just that there is a disparity in which encounters get shared. We know that people have reported their first hand accounts of receiving harassment at multiple cons and multiple times per con. These incidents are not isolated. There is a strong chance that if you are a woman and you attend hacker conferences you will be harassed at least once. Computer circles at large have a problem with sexism and as an overall community does not disapprove of sexist behavior, attitudes, and actions. Other people may not experience harassment at conventions. That is their experience and that is legit. However, that does not in any way negate other people's experience of harassment at those venues nor does it excuse those incidents. Conferences need to take a firmer stance against this kind of behavior, more so than just having cards, but rather with a well defined and clear harassment policy that is actually enforced.
    - cbs 14y ago
      I'd like to ask that you re-read my post. You're talking past me. Given the subject matter I made a poor choice of words using "any one isolated" instead of "any individual", the later phrase is not associated with marginalizing harassment/assault and I should have used that instead. However, even with the poor choice of words I'm not trying to imply that the number of incidents is low enough to be swept aside, in fact I say that in the very next sentence. I never said harassment wasn't a problem, I was trying to address the parent post on the topic of peer disapproval. I was trying to articulate that perception of the level of peer disapproval is a very important factor in addition to peer disapproval proper. Only the perception of disapproval can "stop it before it starts", and these cards seem to be a good way to spread that perception. Sharing incidents where someone is called out on the spot are necessary so that the peer disapproval can spread. Publicizing only the incidents where the harasser gets away with it, that serves to reinforce a perception that can very easily lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
      - king_jester 14y ago
        The reason why people are reporting incidents where a harasser gets away with it is because most of the time they are getting away with it. Conferences are organized in a way that doesn't allow people to get help and stop this kind of behavior when it happens. As the article mentions, often there is no clear policy against harassment and security may even be in on the harassing behavior. Coupled with a lack of peers calling people out, its not a surprise that we see people relating their experiences of assault and harassment and explaining why they won't be going back to particular conferences. I totally agree with you that as a community we need to call out our peers firmly and clearly when we feel safe to do so. As of right now that isn't happening and hacker conferences are not safe spaces for women. We are not creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of harassment by letting people share their experiences of those incidents. The only way we can combat the problem is to acknowledge its existence and listen to the experiences of those who suffered such behavior and attitudes. People should be absolutely free to relate their stories of calling people out and addressing such behavior, but let's not kid ourselves about the reality of what is going on at these conferences for women.
- wpietri 14y ago
  I would use these things in a fucking heartbeat. I'd bet others would too. One of the problems isn't lack of disapproval. It's being instantly prepared to confront the situation in a way that's helpful and effective. When I'm just going about my business, seeing something egregiously wrong often leaves me speechless for a bit. It'd be great to have these in my wallet to whip out and say, "Dude, yellow card!"
  - jackpirate 14y ago
    You say that, but we here on HN all know that what people say and what they actually do are rarely correlated. Maybe they could A/B test this at different conferences and find out.
picklefish 14y ago
Does red get you kicked out of the con or something? If not, this would turn into a game of who can collect the most harassment cards. If so, then people could simple kick out people they don't like.
- wpietri 14y ago
  Many cons are putting together anti-harassment policies that include sanctions up to and including lifetime bans. I'm sure some trolls would be excited by the challenge. But I think these will often serve the purpose of letting somebody know that they have very clearly crossed a line and causing to think about their behavior.
RivieraKid 14y ago
Honestly, I find the cards incredibly weird. I can imagine a class of 10-year-olds using them, but adults?
- saraid216 14y ago
  I like how this implies that soccer players are 10-year-olds.
- boredguy8 14y ago
  When adults are acting like 10-year-olds, maybe it's the perfect solution.
  - RivieraKid 14y ago
    I think that's true only for a small minority...
    - writtles 14y ago
      It's only ever a small minority that needs the correction.
      - RivieraKid 14y ago
        The card system is like dropping a nuclear bomb on Baghdad just to kill Saddam :)
- illuminate 14y ago
  Social sanctions are generally used on children, however are in some cases even more effective on adults, who aren't used to be treated like children.
mbell 14y ago
Do you really think someone that doesn't have the guts to walk up to another and say "cut that out" would have the guts to walk up and hand them a card effectively saying the same thing in text? Personally I find the "just say something to them" approach to be far _less_ confrontational, you can do it discretely and one on one or perhaps just the small local group hears it. Handing someone a bright red/yellow card in what is likely a crowded area creates a spectacle. Many others know what is occurring, lots of pointing and whispering occurs, etc. This puts the receiver in a much more confrontational mindset especially if the receiver feels they did nothing wrong, now they don't have to defend themselves to you alone but to anyone within vision of the hand off, how would the receiver do that without really causing a scene?
- jmelesky 14y ago
  "Do you really think someone that doesn't have the guts to walk up to another and say "cut that out" would have the guts to walk up and hand them a card effectively saying the same thing in text?" Of course. An agreed structure around confrontation reduces the barriers and makes the whole thing easier. That's true of most interactions, not just confrontation.
sophacles 14y ago
Concern: if the peer group does not have a critical mass of people who do disapprove and are willing to vocalize it, could this backfire. I sadly can see a situation where a group of the worst offenders that buddy around together in an otherwise indifferent environment decide to just all hand red cards to every woman who tells them off, doesn't reciprocate/comply, whatever, essentially using these as a weapon of shame and terror. :(

jackpirate 14y ago

One of the reasons it's such a strong deterrent is that it is so difficult to confront someone in your peer group for doing something wrong. Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving. Maybe the card system will get people motivated enough to start disapproving, but I doubt it.

cbs 14y ago
Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving. Yes, they are. Its just that any one isolated indecent of disapproval doesn't get much attention compared to incidents of scum. I'm not saying the levels of scum are acceptable, just that there is a disparity in which encounters get shared. The disapproval needs more mindshare, and thats why I think it was a smart move that defcon staff embraced the red/yellow cards. Nobody is really going to walk around telling everyone about the time they saw a guy tell another guy to knock it off. The cards on the other hand, they had plenty of people talking. On the whole though, we tend to look out for our own. Stories like this: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3043545&cid=40967929 http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3043545&cid=4096... and this: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3043545&cid=40967585 http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3043545&cid=4096... tend to be much of my 1st hand experience, the worst I know of first hand are people that don't known any better than to stare at someones tits.
- king_jester 14y ago
  > Yes, they are. Its just that any one isolated indecent of disapproval doesn't get much attention compared to incidents of scum. I'm not saying the levels of scum are acceptable, just that there is a disparity in which encounters get shared. We know that people have reported their first hand accounts of receiving harassment at multiple cons and multiple times per con. These incidents are not isolated. There is a strong chance that if you are a woman and you attend hacker conferences you will be harassed at least once. Computer circles at large have a problem with sexism and as an overall community does not disapprove of sexist behavior, attitudes, and actions. Other people may not experience harassment at conventions. That is their experience and that is legit. However, that does not in any way negate other people's experience of harassment at those venues nor does it excuse those incidents. Conferences need to take a firmer stance against this kind of behavior, more so than just having cards, but rather with a well defined and clear harassment policy that is actually enforced.
  - cbs 14y ago
    I'd like to ask that you re-read my post. You're talking past me. Given the subject matter I made a poor choice of words using "any one isolated" instead of "any individual", the later phrase is not associated with marginalizing harassment/assault and I should have used that instead. However, even with the poor choice of words I'm not trying to imply that the number of incidents is low enough to be swept aside, in fact I say that in the very next sentence. I never said harassment wasn't a problem, I was trying to address the parent post on the topic of peer disapproval. I was trying to articulate that perception of the level of peer disapproval is a very important factor in addition to peer disapproval proper. Only the perception of disapproval can "stop it before it starts", and these cards seem to be a good way to spread that perception. Sharing incidents where someone is called out on the spot are necessary so that the peer disapproval can spread. Publicizing only the incidents where the harasser gets away with it, that serves to reinforce a perception that can very easily lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
    - king_jester 14y ago
      The reason why people are reporting incidents where a harasser gets away with it is because most of the time they are getting away with it. Conferences are organized in a way that doesn't allow people to get help and stop this kind of behavior when it happens. As the article mentions, often there is no clear policy against harassment and security may even be in on the harassing behavior. Coupled with a lack of peers calling people out, its not a surprise that we see people relating their experiences of assault and harassment and explaining why they won't be going back to particular conferences. I totally agree with you that as a community we need to call out our peers firmly and clearly when we feel safe to do so. As of right now that isn't happening and hacker conferences are not safe spaces for women. We are not creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of harassment by letting people share their experiences of those incidents. The only way we can combat the problem is to acknowledge its existence and listen to the experiences of those who suffered such behavior and attitudes. People should be absolutely free to relate their stories of calling people out and addressing such behavior, but let's not kid ourselves about the reality of what is going on at these conferences for women.
wpietri 14y ago
I would use these things in a fucking heartbeat. I'd bet others would too. One of the problems isn't lack of disapproval. It's being instantly prepared to confront the situation in a way that's helpful and effective. When I'm just going about my business, seeing something egregiously wrong often leaves me speechless for a bit. It'd be great to have these in my wallet to whip out and say, "Dude, yellow card!"
- jackpirate 14y ago
  You say that, but we here on HN all know that what people say and what they actually do are rarely correlated. Maybe they could A/B test this at different conferences and find out.

picklefish 14y ago

Does red get you kicked out of the con or something? If not, this would turn into a game of who can collect the most harassment cards. If so, then people could simple kick out people they don't like.

wpietri 14y ago
Many cons are putting together anti-harassment policies that include sanctions up to and including lifetime bans. I'm sure some trolls would be excited by the challenge. But I think these will often serve the purpose of letting somebody know that they have very clearly crossed a line and causing to think about their behavior.

RivieraKid 14y ago

Honestly, I find the cards incredibly weird. I can imagine a class of 10-year-olds using them, but adults?

saraid216 14y ago
I like how this implies that soccer players are 10-year-olds.
boredguy8 14y ago
When adults are acting like 10-year-olds, maybe it's the perfect solution.
- RivieraKid 14y ago
  I think that's true only for a small minority...
  - writtles 14y ago
    It's only ever a small minority that needs the correction.
    - RivieraKid 14y ago
      The card system is like dropping a nuclear bomb on Baghdad just to kill Saddam :)
illuminate 14y ago
Social sanctions are generally used on children, however are in some cases even more effective on adults, who aren't used to be treated like children.

mbell 14y ago

Do you really think someone that doesn't have the guts to walk up to another and say "cut that out" would have the guts to walk up and hand them a card effectively saying the same thing in text? Personally I find the "just say something to them" approach to be far _less_ confrontational, you can do it discretely and one on one or perhaps just the small local group hears it. Handing someone a bright red/yellow card in what is likely a crowded area creates a spectacle. Many others know what is occurring, lots of pointing and whispering occurs, etc. This puts the receiver in a much more confrontational mindset especially if the receiver feels they did nothing wrong, now they don't have to defend themselves to you alone but to anyone within vision of the hand off, how would the receiver do that without really causing a scene?

jmelesky 14y ago
"Do you really think someone that doesn't have the guts to walk up to another and say "cut that out" would have the guts to walk up and hand them a card effectively saying the same thing in text?" Of course. An agreed structure around confrontation reduces the barriers and makes the whole thing easier. That's true of most interactions, not just confrontation.

sophacles 14y ago

Concern: if the peer group does not have a critical mass of people who do disapprove and are willing to vocalize it, could this backfire. I sadly can see a situation where a group of the worst offenders that buddy around together in an otherwise indifferent environment decide to just all hand red cards to every woman who tells them off, doesn't reciprocate/comply, whatever, essentially using these as a weapon of shame and terror. :(