5 ms·
> pursuit of dignity Could you explain that a bit more? I don't see it.
by epistasis 2y ago
> pursuit of dignity
Could you explain that a bit more? I don't see it.
- jaggederest 2y agoI can't speak for the poster above, but someone over the years explained the rise of nationalist movements as largely being based on creating a sense of self worth in people who feel marginalized. It's an emotional reaction to troubling times that puts reassurance ahead of rational behavior, as explicitly rejected in many anti-enlightenment writers. So, being charitable with the OP, I can see how you might say that conservatives in the US believe that the US's declining status in manufacturing created a world in which "a hard working guy can't get ahead any more because everything is made in China", and thus a perception that in order to create equity and dignity we have to return to internal self reliance, ala juche or autarky.
- TulliusCicero 2y agoThe sad thing is, investment into new manufacturing was actually up -- WAY up -- under Biden, as you can see in this chart: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PRMFGCON https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PRMFGCON Now that Trump is president, looks like it's starting to decline again.
- mjevans 2y agoManufacturing lead times are huge. E.G. Offhand CPUs take something like 5-7 years from initial plans to final tapeouts / production. That's not even considering the issues of planning, permits, installing machines, training workers, etc, in a more down to earth facility like a generic food plant, or heck forbid something seriously regulated (I hope) like making prescription drugs.
- parineum 2y agoThat's a larger reason for offshoring than wages. Your billion dollar factory can start returning the investment years earlier when you manufacture elsewhere.
- mjevans 2y agoLess red tape, easier to manage 'processes', fewer environmental / labor relations... It's those last two, impact on the commons and unfair worker treatment, that are examples of where I _would_ support reasonable tariffs. Particularly if funds from those tariffs went to remediating the impact and were agreed to (also observed) by a majority of other leading countries / economic blocks.
- TulliusCicero 2y agoAnd...what exactly does this have to do with my comment, which was about how much money was being invested into manufacturing construction?
- mjevans 2y agoYou'd mentioned a _timeline_ of manufacturing. I'm pointing out that usually investment has a lag time and giving some examples of lag times I've seen mentioned in publications before to parallel my supposition... That real impact from investment may be 5-10+ years from the initial funding allocation.
- TulliusCicero 2y agoBut I wasn't talking about results, I just pointed out that investment was way up? There's no time lag there, it's just...how much money is going in.
- watwut 2y agoIt is not about manufacturing as in creating things. If it was, they would like Biden policies and continued them. Real manufacturing today is heavily automatized - you can create a lot of things with a few jobs. It is about manufacturing jobs as identity and social status. Biden would create manufacturing as a "modern factories that create things". These do not employ all that many people and wont revert the world back to idealized past.
- mjevans 2y agoYes, those jobs are never returning. Manufacturing will increasingly be automated, or the world will crash in some highly unfortunate way that we'd all be (un?)lucky to survive. Production of critical parts within allied or the same nation is a reasonable goal. It's probably also more energy efficient to manufacture things closer and ship less.
- catlikesshrimp 2y agoWhenever I tried to explain that quote is true anywhere in the world, it was never well received. "a hard working guy can't get ahead any more because xyz" It is ironic there are many very hard working guys in China, Philipines, Vietnam ...
- jaggederest 2y agoYes indeed, it's quite a blinkered world view when considered from a more reality-based perspective, but you can't deny the emotional experience precisely because it's subjective in nature.
- dukeofdoom 2y agoFact is that service jobs don't pay as well, or well at all, and some not even not enough to live on your own, or enough to save for retirement, or to start a family. This resentment is from the young working class males, and the rage is building. You can look at the election in Canada, to see how the younger people voted, and its totally opposite of the boomers they increasingly want to MAID. Populism isn't necessarily bad, It's what gave birth to America. Raging hillbillies rebelling is kind of a thing though out humanity. But particularly successful in America, thanks to the constitution it spawned. And probably many more examples since ...
- pmontra 2y agoI googled: younger people voted for conservatives https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd6j9z3dqg8o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd6j9z3dqg8o MAID: Medical assistance in dying?
- dukeofdoom 2y agoYes, it's no longer a taboo and many younger people are cheering it on. As the older generation controls most of the resources, and wealth. I remember reading somewhere it's actually illegal (or maybe it was a proposed law) to try and discourage someone once they consented. It's currently one in 20 deaths, but that number is growing steadily.
- formerly_proven 2y agoIf service jobs pay way worse than manufacturing jobs, how come manufacturing share v. GDP per head is some kind of inverted parabola? And why are manufacturing jobs deeply unpopular with young people? https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-vs-manufacturing-employment https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-vs-manufacturing-empl...
- ljsprague 2y agoHalf a million extra deaths of despair over the last twenty years or so. https://www.takimag.com/article/deaths-of-despair/ https://www.takimag.com/article/deaths-of-despair/ >"But the more I study the White Death of the past two decades, the more I am instead reminded of the tragic trajectory of a now much less publicized American race, Native Americans. Like American Indians, working-class white Americans seem to be living, and dying, like a defeated people, quietly offing themselves with so little to-do that nobody even noticed what was happening to working-class white lifespans for the first fifteen years of this century."
- saagarjha 2y agoI'm not here to say that working class Americans have it easy but it is outrageous to suggest that depression is in any way comparable to the genocide of America's indigenous population.
- ljsprague 1y agoHe's not talking about the "genocide" you dork; he's talking about the aftermath. But thank you for the virtue signal.
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoYup. I'd hazard an analogy to the idea that one can strategically bomb a population into submission via morale collapse [1]. Not only does it not work, in WWII "being bombed hardened civilian will to resist." (Also in Vietnam.) Speaking more concretely: Canadians are willing to suffer more pain today (vis-à-vis America) than before because of the trade war. [1] https://acoup.blog/2022/10/21/collections-strategic-airpower-101/ https://acoup.blog/2022/10/21/collections-strategic-airpower...
- brookst 2y agoNot GP, but I think I see what they mean. Trump and his base are very focused on “respect”; remember all the lies about Obama’s “apology tour” (or was that Biden? Or both?) All the bluster, all the talk of “America being respected again”, which anyone who travels internationally knows is 100% the opposite of reality, all the classic strongman politics. The creepy looming over Hilary in the debate. All of it is a wildly misplaced sense of machismo, like being a dangerous asshole someone commands respect. Which is ultimately what that crowd wants; they want to behave badly and still be respected. My take, anyway.
- _JoRo 2y agoI think a lot of it is: feels good to think that you're smarter than most than to acknowledge the reality that you're probably not. My intuition is that this type of thinking is becoming more and more entrenched in American culture. I think by the time the culture as a whole wakes up, things will be significantly worse and many of the people who tried to prevent it will have been pushed out or willfully left.
- bnolsen 2y agoTariffs are bad if you are the United States and tariffs are good if you are any other nation.
- epistasis 2y agoCan you connect that statement to the pursuit of dignity?
- hiddencost 2y ago[flagged]
- Waterluvian 2y agoI’ve not seen any truly convincing case for this but I have heard the idea that a lot of all of this is about not wanting to feel shame for being… well… more Morlock than Eloi.
- Propelloni 2y agoCorrect, if you are living in the USA. As someone living in Germany I would think tariffs levied by the EU and/or Germany are bad for me, because it is going to raise prices in the EU and Germany. I'd wish that the EU would just shrug at the tariffs and not counter them, at least not on consumer goods, because in the end US tariffs cost the US consumer not the EU consumer. Obviously it is not that easy, because of jobs, refusal to be insulted and bullied, etc.
- snkzxbs 2y ago> tariffs levied by the EU and/or Germany are bad for me, because it is going to raise prices in the EU and Germany That’s short term thinking. Signed: a Spaniard who has seen all of the country’s industry dismantled since we joined the EU to be moved to Germany and Eastern Europe and now we’re screwed.
- Propelloni 2y agoThinking otherwise is no-term thinking, tariffs hurt consumers in the short term, long term, or any other term. Anyway, why would some industry move from a comparatively low-cost country like Spain to a comparatively high-cost country like Germany? Manufacturing goes where total cost of manufacturing is lowest. Transportation has become so cheap since the mid-20th century that it has lost all impact on deciding on manufacturing locations. Thus the consumer prices can also be low, independent of the location of the manufacturer and the consumer. Tariffs raise sales prices again in the flawed idea that this would raise manufacturing costs abroad. But of course they don't, and seriously, how would they? Tariffs just make imports more expensive and thus actually make prices go up for consumers in the levying country. In the best case it creates a situation where an out-competed local manufacturer can start to manufacture again at cost and compete on prices. But obviously this will be higher than the price of pre-tariff goods, otherwise the local manufacturer wouldn't have been out-competed in the first place. I mean, come on, that's basic economics. In the second best case the manufacturer just stops exporting to tariff country because its market vanished. Why would it vanish? Right, because consumers cannot afford the goods anymore. This creates an opportunity for a competitor that could manufacture at higher cost to sell goods at prices that still cover its cost, because otherwise -- you already guessed it -- the competitor could have competed before tariffs. Again, basic economics. Whatever, consumers pay more -- and have less choice. Yay for tariffs! So what about "yeah, think long term", what does that mean? Let's say long term means 5-10 years or more, because that's about the time you need to launch manufacturing again. OK, there comes a new manufacturer along, or an ailing one recovers because higher prices cover higher manufacturing costs. In beautiful tariff world nations effectively closed their borders for trade, so markets have become much smaller. Even ignoring the initial higher costs, smaller markets mean smaller scale. The new small market will be unable to match the scaling effects of the old large market, there are just not enough consumers. Thus manufacturing will stay more expensive. This in turn will make goods more expensive for consumers. That's not quite as basic but still. Of course we could veer off into some kind of post-capitalistic market system, and depending on what exactly that means I would probably be fine with it. However, I don't think that's what is going to happen.