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> I used an Uber on the way here and the car was dirtier To be fair, the fact that Waymos are fancy clean Jaguars is kind of ancillary to the main technology.

> I used an Uber on the way here and the car was dirtier To be fair, the fact that Waymos are fancy clean Jaguars is kind of ancillary to the main technology. The tech is currently expensive, so they are targeting the luxury market, which you can also get on Uber if you select a black car or whatever. The people willing to pay for that are less likely to make messes, and the drivers put more effort into frequent cleanings. Once the tech becomes cheap, expect the car quality and cleanliness to go down. Robocars do have some intrinsic advantages in that it's easier to set up a standard daily cleaning process, but they will still accumulate more garbage and stains when they are used by a broader cross section of the population and only cleaned during charging to reduce costs. (Of course, cheaper and more widely accessible tech is good for everyone; if you want a immaculate leather seats cleaned three times a day, you'll generally be able to pay for it.)

kajecounterhack 1y ago
I don't think the Jaguars are particularly spacious or nice. They just got a good deal on the platform. If anything, given the commodity nature of vehicles I'd expect car quality to improve. Cleanliness doesn't seem that related to how expensive the tech is either - if anything it would only go down if it ceased to affect willingness to pay. As it stands, clean cars are important to their customers. If usage increases, cleaning can ostensibly increase too, no?
- jessriedel 1y ago
  > Cleanliness doesn't seem that related to how expensive the tech is either - if anything it would only go down if it ceased to affect willingness to pay. If a service is necessarily expensive, it will more by wealthy people, who have a higher willingness to pay for cleanliness. > As it stands, clean cars are important to their customers. This varies depending on the customer. > If usage increases, cleaning can ostensibly increase too, no? Greater usage can lead to economies of scale that push down the cost of cleaning, but I think we're already at the scale (hundreds of cars) where most of the economies of scale have been reached. I expect it's close to linear from now on.
  - kajecounterhack 1y ago
    Higher willingness to pay does not matter unless the market is segmented. So if the tech gets cheaper, unless they explicitly make an expensive "oft-cleaned" tier and a less expensive "less-oft-cleaned" tier, what matters is average willingness to pay. "Once the tech becomes cheap, expect the car quality and cleanliness to go down" -- here you were positing that the _average_ willingness to pay for cleanliness will go down enough to affect things, barring any market segmentation. And I disagree: 1. You're assuming that the reason _why_ Waymo's cars tend to be cleaner than your typical Uber / Lyft is to satisfy a wealthy clientele. This elides a big reason for the existing gap: Uber / Lyft drivers aren't professionally managed. You don't directly pay for your Uber driver's interior car cleaning when you buy a ride, but the salary of folks managing Waymo's fleets is factored directly into pricing. Even if Waymo's clientele were less wealthy, you have to clean your cars and pass the cost on to all users. Additionally, interior cameras are pretty motivating to not mess up cars! 2. You're assuming that the cars today don't get maximum utilization, and that with more utilization you'd see dirtier cars. This is a pretty bad assumption - the cars are being utilized about as heavily as you can hope. In SF for most of Waymo's existence demand has outstripped supply. And the cars are still very clean :) So if the usage is the same, and peoples' expectations for cleanliness are the same, why would rate of cleaning change as time goes on for the service? The only thing I can think is if no reasonable alternatives to Waymo arise - in that case, cleanliness could go down but it has less to do with the clientele / willingness to pay, and more to do with competition / monopoly. As another note, I just don't see how cleaning-based market segmentation would make good operational sense. Is cleaning the car slightly less frequently really gonna help the bottom line? Is the price differential big enough at single-ride scale? Do even rental car companies do this for their fleets - the cheap ones still seem to clean their cars.
    - jessriedel 1y ago
      > Higher willingness to pay does not matter unless the market is segmented. Incorrect. > unless they explicitly make an expensive "oft-cleaned" tier and a less expensive "less-oft-cleaned" tier, That's exactly what I'm saying would happen. We already have it with Uber Black. > You're assuming that the cars today don't get maximum utilization, and that with more utilization you'd see dirtier cars. No, I'm not assuming that. > As another note, I just don't see how cleaning-based market segmentation would make good operational sense Again, Uber Black.
AStonesThrow 1y ago
What is 1000% better about Waymo than rideshares is the liveried fleet vehicles. Regular taxis around here are also liveried fleet vehicles. Especially the very large providers: if I summon a taxi cab, I know for sure its make and model, and its paint job will clearly indicate it's on-duty as a taxi cab. You don't understand how incredibly important this is sometimes. For the simple yet panic-inducing task of strapping on my seat belt: I can do it in seconds with a liveried vehicle, because I know exactly what to expect. In a rideshare like an Uber, every time a car arrives, it is a new make, new model (I swear to god what the fuck is a "Polestar"???) and the owner might have wrapped on some crazy aftermarket seat covers, and finding the seat belt and its mating latch is a huge drama. I've taken to leaving the passenger seat open, until I can get the belt safely latched, because otherwise the driver will promptly take off, and panic will increase 3x as the vehicle is moving and I can't find the seat belt. Other than that, the liveried vehicles are easier to maintain; they're easier to keep clean; they're much better for brand recognition. Hallelujah for Waymo!
- ycombinatrix 1y ago
  Polestar is Volvo, inventor of the three point seat belt.
Rebelgecko 1y ago
YMMV but for me Waymo is usually significantly cheaper than Uber Black and more comparable to UberX (within a few bucks before taking tip into consideration)
- jessriedel 1y ago
  Yea, but I strongly suspect the current Waymo price is much higher than their operating costs. I don't think we should infer to much from the price they are charging.
kjkjadksj 1y ago
A quarter of the ubers I get now absolutely reek of cigarettes. It has been mostly eastern european immigrants ridesharing as of late in my experience.
- Ylpertnodi 1y ago
  White people smoke, too, in my experience.

kajecounterhack 1y ago

I don't think the Jaguars are particularly spacious or nice. They just got a good deal on the platform. If anything, given the commodity nature of vehicles I'd expect car quality to improve. Cleanliness doesn't seem that related to how expensive the tech is either - if anything it would only go down if it ceased to affect willingness to pay. As it stands, clean cars are important to their customers. If usage increases, cleaning can ostensibly increase too, no?

jessriedel 1y ago
> Cleanliness doesn't seem that related to how expensive the tech is either - if anything it would only go down if it ceased to affect willingness to pay. If a service is necessarily expensive, it will more by wealthy people, who have a higher willingness to pay for cleanliness. > As it stands, clean cars are important to their customers. This varies depending on the customer. > If usage increases, cleaning can ostensibly increase too, no? Greater usage can lead to economies of scale that push down the cost of cleaning, but I think we're already at the scale (hundreds of cars) where most of the economies of scale have been reached. I expect it's close to linear from now on.
- kajecounterhack 1y ago
  Higher willingness to pay does not matter unless the market is segmented. So if the tech gets cheaper, unless they explicitly make an expensive "oft-cleaned" tier and a less expensive "less-oft-cleaned" tier, what matters is average willingness to pay. "Once the tech becomes cheap, expect the car quality and cleanliness to go down" -- here you were positing that the _average_ willingness to pay for cleanliness will go down enough to affect things, barring any market segmentation. And I disagree: 1. You're assuming that the reason _why_ Waymo's cars tend to be cleaner than your typical Uber / Lyft is to satisfy a wealthy clientele. This elides a big reason for the existing gap: Uber / Lyft drivers aren't professionally managed. You don't directly pay for your Uber driver's interior car cleaning when you buy a ride, but the salary of folks managing Waymo's fleets is factored directly into pricing. Even if Waymo's clientele were less wealthy, you have to clean your cars and pass the cost on to all users. Additionally, interior cameras are pretty motivating to not mess up cars! 2. You're assuming that the cars today don't get maximum utilization, and that with more utilization you'd see dirtier cars. This is a pretty bad assumption - the cars are being utilized about as heavily as you can hope. In SF for most of Waymo's existence demand has outstripped supply. And the cars are still very clean :) So if the usage is the same, and peoples' expectations for cleanliness are the same, why would rate of cleaning change as time goes on for the service? The only thing I can think is if no reasonable alternatives to Waymo arise - in that case, cleanliness could go down but it has less to do with the clientele / willingness to pay, and more to do with competition / monopoly. As another note, I just don't see how cleaning-based market segmentation would make good operational sense. Is cleaning the car slightly less frequently really gonna help the bottom line? Is the price differential big enough at single-ride scale? Do even rental car companies do this for their fleets - the cheap ones still seem to clean their cars.
  - jessriedel 1y ago
    > Higher willingness to pay does not matter unless the market is segmented. Incorrect. > unless they explicitly make an expensive "oft-cleaned" tier and a less expensive "less-oft-cleaned" tier, That's exactly what I'm saying would happen. We already have it with Uber Black. > You're assuming that the cars today don't get maximum utilization, and that with more utilization you'd see dirtier cars. No, I'm not assuming that. > As another note, I just don't see how cleaning-based market segmentation would make good operational sense Again, Uber Black.

AStonesThrow 1y ago

What is 1000% better about Waymo than rideshares is the liveried fleet vehicles. Regular taxis around here are also liveried fleet vehicles. Especially the very large providers: if I summon a taxi cab, I know for sure its make and model, and its paint job will clearly indicate it's on-duty as a taxi cab. You don't understand how incredibly important this is sometimes. For the simple yet panic-inducing task of strapping on my seat belt: I can do it in seconds with a liveried vehicle, because I know exactly what to expect. In a rideshare like an Uber, every time a car arrives, it is a new make, new model (I swear to god what the fuck is a "Polestar"???) and the owner might have wrapped on some crazy aftermarket seat covers, and finding the seat belt and its mating latch is a huge drama. I've taken to leaving the passenger seat open, until I can get the belt safely latched, because otherwise the driver will promptly take off, and panic will increase 3x as the vehicle is moving and I can't find the seat belt. Other than that, the liveried vehicles are easier to maintain; they're easier to keep clean; they're much better for brand recognition. Hallelujah for Waymo!

ycombinatrix 1y ago
Polestar is Volvo, inventor of the three point seat belt.

Rebelgecko 1y ago

YMMV but for me Waymo is usually significantly cheaper than Uber Black and more comparable to UberX (within a few bucks before taking tip into consideration)

jessriedel 1y ago
Yea, but I strongly suspect the current Waymo price is much higher than their operating costs. I don't think we should infer to much from the price they are charging.

kjkjadksj 1y ago

A quarter of the ubers I get now absolutely reek of cigarettes. It has been mostly eastern european immigrants ridesharing as of late in my experience.

Ylpertnodi 1y ago
White people smoke, too, in my experience.