6 ms·

What the world needs is a 150 watt low voltage power over ethernet standard for lighting an low power appliances.

londons_explore 1y ago
USB-C fulfils that already. It doesn't work out economically because big networks of usb devices (ie. Hubs) all need the power components if one is to maintain the generalisability of being able to plug anything into the grid anywhere.
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
  USB has significant length limitations and the cabling is generally not plenum rated. It's also silly to have a cable with wires that will never be used beyond negotiating for power.
- deepsun 1y ago
  USB-C is for short distances (<4m) and is more expensive than CAT6 cable. https://www.cablematters.com/Blog/USB-C/how-long-can-a-usb-c-cable-be https://www.cablematters.com/Blog/USB-C/how-long-can-a-usb-c...
SigmundA 1y ago
POE+++ is 90W so maybe POE++++? Hard to go up in voltage as its now no longer considered "low" voltage wiring and hard to go up in current without increasing conductor size of ethernet cable.
- allenrb 1y ago
  POE+=4 is a clear win at this level. ;-)
  - bill3478 1y ago
    Wouldn't that be POE+=2? Also, if this is anything like USB it will be PoE 3.14 Gen 2 type E.
holowoodman 1y ago
There is, shockingly enough, 100W PoE lighting... https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/enterprise-networks/what-is-poe-lighting.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/enterprise-networks/... Imho a totally crazy waste of expensive gear, but whatever floats your boat...
- NewJazz 1y ago
  Isn't it cheaper and more reliable than a dozen ZigBee bulbs?
  - holowoodman 1y ago
    Could be, I don't have any price info on all of the PoE lighting stuff. But let's say i've got an office area, where I would need 2kW lights in total (which isn't much, I think 200W per desk is considered bright enough). This would need 20 PoE ports, 20 cables, 20 PoE-capable light fixtures with the right transformers/bulbs. Just the 2kW/>20port PoE-Switch will set you back 2k€ or more, no idea what the light fixtures will cost. Maybe a 50W ZigBee bulb will cost 50€, you need 20, then you are at the price of just the switch. And you can just use plain electrical wiring, no need to do the whole more expensive Cat6+Patchpanel thing. And my personal favourite, even better than overly expensive ZigBee bulbs: https://www.shelly.com/de/products/shelly-dimmer2 https://www.shelly.com/de/products/shelly-dimmer2 Wifi-controllable dimmer, speaks MQTT or HTTP, for a load of 200W at 35€, works with any dimmable light fixture. Also available as a relay if you aren't interested in dimming, then you can do 2kW in 2 channels at a lower price. And if you are worried about WiFi, there is a cabled version as well.
    - horsawlarway 1y ago
      200W is a huge number for modern lights. You don't care about the power consumption, You care about the light level produced (Watts != Lumen). Most advice says 500 to 1000 lux is fine for an office desk (en 12464). For a 1 sq meter desk, that's about 800 lumens worth of light, or maybe 50 watts max in modern LED lighting (two 800 lumen bulbs, 14W each). LEDs are just way better than older lights.
kbaker 1y ago
I could hope for a future PoE-over-Data Line (PoDL) version using an 18 AWG twisted pair that would work for this, providing something like 48V @ 3 or 4 A, and 10BASE-T1L for data. Hopefully a standard way to do this gains traction. The existing limitation is with the 2x23 AWG (or 4x23 AWG) of Cat5e/6/6a not providing a lot of current-carrying capability at a safe voltage.
- grumpy-de-sre 1y ago
  Big concern IMO with 10BASE-T1 and PoDL for long runs / in wall installations etc is the lack of galvanic isolation. Maybe I'm just paranoid but there's a ton of advantages to not having to worry about things like ground loops and common mode voltages etc. What I wouldn't mind would be a beefier 100BASE-TX 2-pair cable spec, and some extended PoE profiles. You'd need high current magnetics or something but surely that's possible.
deepsun 1y ago
Was just thinking about it for my home. Googling showed that it's only for commercial applications now (like "request a quote" for a lightbulb). There is a good opportunity for a startup IMHO. With 100W PoE, one can daisy-chain 10 light bulbs on one cable (or put them on different pairs of wires within one cat6 cable). But what I really wanted is controllable devices, so that I could re-assign lights<->switches in my home hub. UPDATE: and you don't need an electrician license to work with low voltage.
- somat 1y ago
  A managed switch will allow you to power on/off specific ports. When I was looking at home automation systems and all the insanity found there. at one point I said "if I were to design a home automation system from scratch what would it look like?" my answer for the physical layer was poe and managed switches.
  - baby_souffle 1y ago
    > A managed switch will allow you to power on/off specific ports. As somebody that's looked into this... yes, but. The contemporary light switch is instant. Within a few nanoseconds of your brain feeling the "click", you see the light. There's a noticeable latency from an API request to the switch's control plane which then talks to the power control which then turns power to the port off and then the light goes out. You have the additional delay of poe negotiation for the "turn on" operation, too.
    - somat 1y ago
      That is how I managed to talk myself out of investing in a home automation setup, none of the incompatible systems felt good and more importantly, they were all worse than having a physical switch I can toggle.
      - doubleg72 1y ago
        Lutron offers a variety of styles that work near instantly. I’ve been using them for years.
zdragnar 1y ago
As an American, I'd just be happy if we switched to 240v rather than 120.
- somat 1y ago
  three phase, If we are going with unrealistic dreams, I want three phase to every house. "avoids eye contact as you patently explain that the only real benefit to three phase is for motors" But really the US is a 240V system. we just split the phase and wire the house in two halfs. you should not even need to rewire your house. Just hook the neutral to the opposite phase in the panel, like magic you now have 240V in every outlet. Don't actually do this it will end up killing someone.
- xenadu02 1y ago
  As the sibling comment notes: The US/Canada are already split-phase 240v/120v systems. As near to 100% as makes no difference every single house is already wired for 240v. In fact wired for it and using it: electric ranges, stoves, dryers, etc are all 240v. NEMA even defines 240v receptacles/plugs for normal amperage: NEMA 6-15 (two horizontal blades: meh face) and 6-20 (one vertical, one horizontal: wink with other eye closed). Unlike the common 240v dryer/large appliance cords that are huge and bulky 6-15 and 6-20 are about the same size as our current 120v plugs. They have the same compatibility as 5-15/5-20: The 15 amp version fits in the 20 amp receptacle but the 20 amp only fits 20 amp. And it is impossible to plug 120 into 240 or vice-versa. Everything made for 120v (to a rough approximation) is also rated for 240v. Unfortunately no one bothers to install the 6-15/6-20 plugs. There is nothing stopping any builder from doing it standard, especially in the kitchen. There is nothing stopping a homeowner/buyer from asking for it either. But no one does. Therefore there is no market for appliances that use these plugs. And thus no demand to wire for them. It would likely take a push from government, manufacturers, the NEC, etc to push for supporting 240v for common appliances. Start installing them in new homes. Offering the 240v version of electric kettles and such. Note: some European appliances can be wired up this way and will run fine because they tolerate 60Hz but not all of them.
  - zdragnar 1y ago
mystified5016 1y ago
PoE seems excessively wasteful for dumb loads. 8 conductors for lighting and a dozen bytes of "turn off bulb 1234" is crazy. Not to mention that you need almost as much electronics on either end of the wire as you do with any 120VAC to DC adapter. We definitely need domestic DC systems, but not loaded down with the hardware and software complexity of Ethernet. You could run three wires for DC plus half-duplex RS232 or similar, or you could do two wires and impose a high frequency communication signal on top of the DC. There are many options that don't require your lights to have IP addresses.
- deepsun 1y ago
  Even though it's 8 conductors, you still put only one cable, that's much easier than even two wires. Low voltage means you don't need an electrician license to DIY, because it's not going to burn the house. Mass producing cables and electronics becomes cheap. The limiting factor is then materials, not complexity. Look at ESP32 controllers for $7. Also, I d like my cable to serve 10 light bulbs, each of which may not only turn on/off, but change brightness and color temperature.

USB-C fulfils that already. It doesn't work out economically because big networks of usb devices (ie. Hubs) all need the power components if one is to maintain the generalisability of being able to plug anything into the grid anywhere.

kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
USB has significant length limitations and the cabling is generally not plenum rated. It's also silly to have a cable with wires that will never be used beyond negotiating for power.
deepsun 1y ago
USB-C is for short distances (<4m) and is more expensive than CAT6 cable. https://www.cablematters.com/Blog/USB-C/how-long-can-a-usb-c-cable-be https://www.cablematters.com/Blog/USB-C/how-long-can-a-usb-c...

SigmundA 1y ago

POE+++ is 90W so maybe POE++++? Hard to go up in voltage as its now no longer considered "low" voltage wiring and hard to go up in current without increasing conductor size of ethernet cable.

allenrb 1y ago
POE+=4 is a clear win at this level. ;-)
- bill3478 1y ago
  Wouldn't that be POE+=2? Also, if this is anything like USB it will be PoE 3.14 Gen 2 type E.

holowoodman 1y ago

There is, shockingly enough, 100W PoE lighting... https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/enterprise-networks/what-is-poe-lighting.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/enterprise-networks/... Imho a totally crazy waste of expensive gear, but whatever floats your boat...

NewJazz 1y ago
Isn't it cheaper and more reliable than a dozen ZigBee bulbs?
- holowoodman 1y ago
  Could be, I don't have any price info on all of the PoE lighting stuff. But let's say i've got an office area, where I would need 2kW lights in total (which isn't much, I think 200W per desk is considered bright enough). This would need 20 PoE ports, 20 cables, 20 PoE-capable light fixtures with the right transformers/bulbs. Just the 2kW/>20port PoE-Switch will set you back 2k€ or more, no idea what the light fixtures will cost. Maybe a 50W ZigBee bulb will cost 50€, you need 20, then you are at the price of just the switch. And you can just use plain electrical wiring, no need to do the whole more expensive Cat6+Patchpanel thing. And my personal favourite, even better than overly expensive ZigBee bulbs: https://www.shelly.com/de/products/shelly-dimmer2 https://www.shelly.com/de/products/shelly-dimmer2 Wifi-controllable dimmer, speaks MQTT or HTTP, for a load of 200W at 35€, works with any dimmable light fixture. Also available as a relay if you aren't interested in dimming, then you can do 2kW in 2 channels at a lower price. And if you are worried about WiFi, there is a cabled version as well.
  - horsawlarway 1y ago
    200W is a huge number for modern lights. You don't care about the power consumption, You care about the light level produced (Watts != Lumen). Most advice says 500 to 1000 lux is fine for an office desk (en 12464). For a 1 sq meter desk, that's about 800 lumens worth of light, or maybe 50 watts max in modern LED lighting (two 800 lumen bulbs, 14W each). LEDs are just way better than older lights.

kbaker 1y ago

I could hope for a future PoE-over-Data Line (PoDL) version using an 18 AWG twisted pair that would work for this, providing something like 48V @ 3 or 4 A, and 10BASE-T1L for data. Hopefully a standard way to do this gains traction. The existing limitation is with the 2x23 AWG (or 4x23 AWG) of Cat5e/6/6a not providing a lot of current-carrying capability at a safe voltage.

grumpy-de-sre 1y ago
Big concern IMO with 10BASE-T1 and PoDL for long runs / in wall installations etc is the lack of galvanic isolation. Maybe I'm just paranoid but there's a ton of advantages to not having to worry about things like ground loops and common mode voltages etc. What I wouldn't mind would be a beefier 100BASE-TX 2-pair cable spec, and some extended PoE profiles. You'd need high current magnetics or something but surely that's possible.

deepsun 1y ago

Was just thinking about it for my home. Googling showed that it's only for commercial applications now (like "request a quote" for a lightbulb). There is a good opportunity for a startup IMHO. With 100W PoE, one can daisy-chain 10 light bulbs on one cable (or put them on different pairs of wires within one cat6 cable). But what I really wanted is controllable devices, so that I could re-assign lights<->switches in my home hub. UPDATE: and you don't need an electrician license to work with low voltage.

somat 1y ago
A managed switch will allow you to power on/off specific ports. When I was looking at home automation systems and all the insanity found there. at one point I said "if I were to design a home automation system from scratch what would it look like?" my answer for the physical layer was poe and managed switches.
- baby_souffle 1y ago
  > A managed switch will allow you to power on/off specific ports. As somebody that's looked into this... yes, but. The contemporary light switch is instant. Within a few nanoseconds of your brain feeling the "click", you see the light. There's a noticeable latency from an API request to the switch's control plane which then talks to the power control which then turns power to the port off and then the light goes out. You have the additional delay of poe negotiation for the "turn on" operation, too.
  - somat 1y ago
    That is how I managed to talk myself out of investing in a home automation setup, none of the incompatible systems felt good and more importantly, they were all worse than having a physical switch I can toggle.
    - doubleg72 1y ago
      Lutron offers a variety of styles that work near instantly. I’ve been using them for years.

zdragnar 1y ago

As an American, I'd just be happy if we switched to 240v rather than 120.

somat 1y ago
three phase, If we are going with unrealistic dreams, I want three phase to every house. "avoids eye contact as you patently explain that the only real benefit to three phase is for motors" But really the US is a 240V system. we just split the phase and wire the house in two halfs. you should not even need to rewire your house. Just hook the neutral to the opposite phase in the panel, like magic you now have 240V in every outlet. Don't actually do this it will end up killing someone.
xenadu02 1y ago
As the sibling comment notes: The US/Canada are already split-phase 240v/120v systems. As near to 100% as makes no difference every single house is already wired for 240v. In fact wired for it and using it: electric ranges, stoves, dryers, etc are all 240v. NEMA even defines 240v receptacles/plugs for normal amperage: NEMA 6-15 (two horizontal blades: meh face) and 6-20 (one vertical, one horizontal: wink with other eye closed). Unlike the common 240v dryer/large appliance cords that are huge and bulky 6-15 and 6-20 are about the same size as our current 120v plugs. They have the same compatibility as 5-15/5-20: The 15 amp version fits in the 20 amp receptacle but the 20 amp only fits 20 amp. And it is impossible to plug 120 into 240 or vice-versa. Everything made for 120v (to a rough approximation) is also rated for 240v. Unfortunately no one bothers to install the 6-15/6-20 plugs. There is nothing stopping any builder from doing it standard, especially in the kitchen. There is nothing stopping a homeowner/buyer from asking for it either. But no one does. Therefore there is no market for appliances that use these plugs. And thus no demand to wire for them. It would likely take a push from government, manufacturers, the NEC, etc to push for supporting 240v for common appliances. Start installing them in new homes. Offering the 240v version of electric kettles and such. Note: some European appliances can be wired up this way and will run fine because they tolerate 60Hz but not all of them.
- zdragnar 1y ago

mystified5016 1y ago

PoE seems excessively wasteful for dumb loads. 8 conductors for lighting and a dozen bytes of "turn off bulb 1234" is crazy. Not to mention that you need almost as much electronics on either end of the wire as you do with any 120VAC to DC adapter. We definitely need domestic DC systems, but not loaded down with the hardware and software complexity of Ethernet. You could run three wires for DC plus half-duplex RS232 or similar, or you could do two wires and impose a high frequency communication signal on top of the DC. There are many options that don't require your lights to have IP addresses.

deepsun 1y ago
Even though it's 8 conductors, you still put only one cable, that's much easier than even two wires. Low voltage means you don't need an electrician license to DIY, because it's not going to burn the house. Mass producing cables and electronics becomes cheap. The limiting factor is then materials, not complexity. Look at ESP32 controllers for $7. Also, I d like my cable to serve 10 light bulbs, each of which may not only turn on/off, but change brightness and color temperature.