5 ms·

I'm sad all eInk monitor makers want to ship high refresh rates and other parameters to compete with classic displays, making them this expensive. I would rathe

I'm sad all eInk monitor makers want to ship high refresh rates and other parameters to compete with classic displays, making them this expensive. I would rather buy a cheap 1 Hz monochrome eInk display (at least FullHD size and HDMI/DP-attached though) just to display text documents than a ridiculously expensive eInk to watch action videos on it (what a ridiculous aim, right tool for the job anybody?)

ipsum2 1y ago
Why do you think that the high refresh rate is the main reason for the high price, instead of resolution or screen size?
- qwerty456127 1y ago
  This seems a reasonable assumption to me but I don't mean to insist I'm right. Slow monochrome eInk panels have been around for 2 decades. Mostly built into pocket book readers, phones (like Motorola F3) and niche devices like supermarket price tags rather than computer monitors attachable with common connectors. Okay, perhaps it's not the speed which makes them expensive, yet manufacturers and researchers mostly brag about making them faster (and more colorful) rather than making them more cheap (what I would prefer them to).
  - ipsum2 1y ago
    There's still the confounding variable of size and resolution (eg supermarket price tags).
- m463 1y ago
  or patents. it seems like the company with e-ink patents might be like luxottica controlling the eyeglass market. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26143407 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26143407
atoav 1y ago
A text heavy application where update rate matters is programming. And I would be the target audience for that. Also I would suspect the high refresh rate isn't the main cost driver here. You can simply refresh eink displays with different methods that offer different trade offs
- JonChesterfield 1y ago
  I'm not sure update rate is that important. Subsecond sure, but 33Hz seems overspecified for showing ascii that occasionally scrolls a little. Maybe critical for mouse pointer IDEs?
  - atoav 1y ago
    In the end it is about latency. A common example for me would be multireplace, where I select a word, ctrl + d through all instances and replace them. The second step will present me with multiple instaces of often wildly differnt usages of one word per second. This being sluggish or unreadable would be a dealbreaker for me, personally. I can imagine that a somewhat responsive display would also be important for vim users.
  - qwerty456127 1y ago
    Yes, mouse pointer is among major articles driving refresh rate demand. Code auto completion/hinting is another one. But these are not essential for every workflow, there are many people who don't really need these. The most itchy thing is waiting for a letter to appear on the screen after you press a key - everyone wants this real time but some people still can tolerate a delay.
- qwerty456127 1y ago
  > A text heavy application where update rate matters is programming. And I would be the target audience for that. I wish you get what you want soon. Nevertheless I would prefer there to be a cheaper option for those who only need to read static documents or watch dashboards of information which doesn't change fast. > You can simply refresh eink displays with different methods that offer different trade offs Needless to say eInk displays aren't meant to refresh the same way classic displays do. Only the regions which actually change are supposed to redraw. 1 Hz doesn't mean the whole panel is fully reset 60 times every minute, only that it takes a second to display a change. Is this what you mean?
goosedragons 1y ago
These ARE the same slow panels. The high refresh rates are basically done with compromises on quality during refresh. Large eInk panels are expensive. Just look at how much a 13" eInk device is vs. 10" or 7" or 6". This is a whole level over 13". If you are going to use these on a computer at all you need some sort of high refresh mode. Things like scrolling and typing are just way too annoying without it.
- qwerty456127 1y ago
  > If you are going to use these on a computer at all you need some sort of high refresh mode. Things like scrolling and typing are just way too annoying without it. I hate scrolling and hardly ever scroll really - I just use multiple vertical displays to fit every page fully, only switching pages. Surely this whole discussion thread can't be fit in a screen but I'm perfectly comfortable "scrolling" it with PgDn. I'm used to slow-response typing (waiting for seconds before a word I typed appears when using modern software on old PCs). In fact I don't even look at the screen when I type until I finish a sentence - despite typing fairly fast I have a habit of looking at the keyboard. I don't mean this is a right way to type yet it proves seeing characters displayed immediately is not essential.
  - goosedragons 1y ago
    I touch type too but the lag is very much there. Correcting a typo is difficult because unless you're perfectly counting key presses you don't know where the cursor is.
    - qwerty456127 1y ago
      Sure, this can be an inconvenience when you type a lot and use a single-display setup. But I read way more and consider single-monitor work resemble running on crutches. This said I would probably put an eInk and a classic display alongside each other to display what I have to read on one side and what I have to edit next to it. Messenger apps even have separate panes for displaying message threads and for editing the message you are going to submit - I could put these on separate displays (if the apps would allow moving panels around the way classic desktop apps did).
MisterTea 1y ago
> (what a ridiculous aim, right tool for the job anybody?) High efficiency computing where we dont update the screen until absolutely necessary. Efficiency isn't just good for mobile/battery devices, it's good for everything.

ipsum2 1y ago

Why do you think that the high refresh rate is the main reason for the high price, instead of resolution or screen size?

qwerty456127 1y ago
This seems a reasonable assumption to me but I don't mean to insist I'm right. Slow monochrome eInk panels have been around for 2 decades. Mostly built into pocket book readers, phones (like Motorola F3) and niche devices like supermarket price tags rather than computer monitors attachable with common connectors. Okay, perhaps it's not the speed which makes them expensive, yet manufacturers and researchers mostly brag about making them faster (and more colorful) rather than making them more cheap (what I would prefer them to).
- ipsum2 1y ago
  There's still the confounding variable of size and resolution (eg supermarket price tags).
m463 1y ago
or patents. it seems like the company with e-ink patents might be like luxottica controlling the eyeglass market. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26143407 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26143407

atoav 1y ago

A text heavy application where update rate matters is programming. And I would be the target audience for that. Also I would suspect the high refresh rate isn't the main cost driver here. You can simply refresh eink displays with different methods that offer different trade offs

JonChesterfield 1y ago
I'm not sure update rate is that important. Subsecond sure, but 33Hz seems overspecified for showing ascii that occasionally scrolls a little. Maybe critical for mouse pointer IDEs?
- atoav 1y ago
  In the end it is about latency. A common example for me would be multireplace, where I select a word, ctrl + d through all instances and replace them. The second step will present me with multiple instaces of often wildly differnt usages of one word per second. This being sluggish or unreadable would be a dealbreaker for me, personally. I can imagine that a somewhat responsive display would also be important for vim users.
- qwerty456127 1y ago
  Yes, mouse pointer is among major articles driving refresh rate demand. Code auto completion/hinting is another one. But these are not essential for every workflow, there are many people who don't really need these. The most itchy thing is waiting for a letter to appear on the screen after you press a key - everyone wants this real time but some people still can tolerate a delay.
qwerty456127 1y ago
> A text heavy application where update rate matters is programming. And I would be the target audience for that. I wish you get what you want soon. Nevertheless I would prefer there to be a cheaper option for those who only need to read static documents or watch dashboards of information which doesn't change fast. > You can simply refresh eink displays with different methods that offer different trade offs Needless to say eInk displays aren't meant to refresh the same way classic displays do. Only the regions which actually change are supposed to redraw. 1 Hz doesn't mean the whole panel is fully reset 60 times every minute, only that it takes a second to display a change. Is this what you mean?

goosedragons 1y ago

These ARE the same slow panels. The high refresh rates are basically done with compromises on quality during refresh. Large eInk panels are expensive. Just look at how much a 13" eInk device is vs. 10" or 7" or 6". This is a whole level over 13". If you are going to use these on a computer at all you need some sort of high refresh mode. Things like scrolling and typing are just way too annoying without it.

qwerty456127 1y ago
> If you are going to use these on a computer at all you need some sort of high refresh mode. Things like scrolling and typing are just way too annoying without it. I hate scrolling and hardly ever scroll really - I just use multiple vertical displays to fit every page fully, only switching pages. Surely this whole discussion thread can't be fit in a screen but I'm perfectly comfortable "scrolling" it with PgDn. I'm used to slow-response typing (waiting for seconds before a word I typed appears when using modern software on old PCs). In fact I don't even look at the screen when I type until I finish a sentence - despite typing fairly fast I have a habit of looking at the keyboard. I don't mean this is a right way to type yet it proves seeing characters displayed immediately is not essential.
- goosedragons 1y ago
  I touch type too but the lag is very much there. Correcting a typo is difficult because unless you're perfectly counting key presses you don't know where the cursor is.
  - qwerty456127 1y ago
    Sure, this can be an inconvenience when you type a lot and use a single-display setup. But I read way more and consider single-monitor work resemble running on crutches. This said I would probably put an eInk and a classic display alongside each other to display what I have to read on one side and what I have to edit next to it. Messenger apps even have separate panes for displaying message threads and for editing the message you are going to submit - I could put these on separate displays (if the apps would allow moving panels around the way classic desktop apps did).

MisterTea 1y ago

> (what a ridiculous aim, right tool for the job anybody?) High efficiency computing where we dont update the screen until absolutely necessary. Efficiency isn't just good for mobile/battery devices, it's good for everything.