5 ms·

The vast majority of tech workers I know come from comfortable middle class suburban backgrounds, so I'm not surprised they're anti-union and anti-labor.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
I will admit that the return to office push was the first time I actively considered forming a union or at least an org that would fight for that specific benefit. Covid changed me.
SirFatty 1y ago
A lot of "comfortable middle class suburban" folks I know are in the trades. Hardly anti-union with that group.
- gymbeaux 1y ago
  But they entered their field with the union already established. Humans won’t fight for a damn thing.
  - SirFatty 1y ago
    Ok? That has nothing to do with my comment pointing out that "comfortable middle class suburban" != anti-union and anti-labor.
- DrillShopper 1y ago
  I know plenty of people in the trades that are anti-union - they're typically the ones in the "comfortable middle class suburban" category. They've worked a bit and maybe are contractors of their own. They complain about how much it costs to have a union crew and about how slow the work gets done. They do not think workers need more protections (look at Florida and other states prohibiting mandatory water breaks for worker protection), and actively complain about needing to carry Worker's Comp insurance and withhold taxes (which is why many of them pay under the table for non-union work, undocumented day laborers outside of Home Depot/Lowes seem to be their favorite choices). In fact they tend to be some of the most anti-union, anti-labor folks I know. I will grant that not every single person in the "comfortable middle class suburban" category is anti-union / anti-labor, but it's a pattern I see often enough that it is worth remarking on.
gibspaulding 1y ago
Not even anti-union, but comfy enough not to feel the need for the effort/risk involved in unionizing. When you work in a trade where you could easily be killed or injured on the job the calculus is a bit different.
- DrillShopper 1y ago
  It's never ceases to amaze me how much software folks think that their job cannot easily injure or kill them. All of the devs I know have no work/life balance, skip doctor's appointments because of work commitments, and several I know have had strokes or heart attacks at their desk while pushing to meet a deadline. Just because you likely won't be killed in a crane collapse or someone dropping a hammer doesn't mean that the workplace is safe and that working conditions are good.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    You’re quite right - working in an office kills you. It’s just mundane and slow, so we don’t really notice. But at the end of the day most people are dropping from heart disease, diabetes, obesity. Sitting 8+ hours a day is basically worse for you than smoking. Since it’s so, so slow I think we all have the belief that surely this will not happen to us. We will not be frog boiled, because surely we will notice once we are fat and hyperventilating going up the stairs. Surely, there will be some indication and we will turn the ship around. But looking around us, I don’t think so. Clearly people are getting frog boiled. And they get so beaten down, so worn, that eventually they do not fight it.
  - theamk 1y ago
    If that describes you, I advice you to look at other jobs ASAP. I've seen what you describe in Amazon - high pressure, constant thread of being fired, stress, no work/life balance, etc... Many other jobs are different. Sure, things are inefficient, but the expectations are not very high either. You come in, do your 7 hours of work (or don't even come in if you are remote), and go home. It's pretty hard to get fired, so as long as you are putting a nominal effort, you'd be fine. Some people are trying to get a promotion, or are just full of energy - they may work very hard, skip work/life balance and stress out. But it's all optional, if you are happy with your initial salary, you don't have to do it. (The major annoyance with this is if you are trying to actually get things done, like ship a product, there are just _so many_ people around who seem to work very slowly, and that cannot be relied on to deliver things in time... but this is all in your head, you only stress out about this if you choose to)

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago

I will admit that the return to office push was the first time I actively considered forming a union or at least an org that would fight for that specific benefit. Covid changed me.

SirFatty 1y ago

A lot of "comfortable middle class suburban" folks I know are in the trades. Hardly anti-union with that group.

gymbeaux 1y ago
But they entered their field with the union already established. Humans won’t fight for a damn thing.
- SirFatty 1y ago
  Ok? That has nothing to do with my comment pointing out that "comfortable middle class suburban" != anti-union and anti-labor.
DrillShopper 1y ago
I know plenty of people in the trades that are anti-union - they're typically the ones in the "comfortable middle class suburban" category. They've worked a bit and maybe are contractors of their own. They complain about how much it costs to have a union crew and about how slow the work gets done. They do not think workers need more protections (look at Florida and other states prohibiting mandatory water breaks for worker protection), and actively complain about needing to carry Worker's Comp insurance and withhold taxes (which is why many of them pay under the table for non-union work, undocumented day laborers outside of Home Depot/Lowes seem to be their favorite choices). In fact they tend to be some of the most anti-union, anti-labor folks I know. I will grant that not every single person in the "comfortable middle class suburban" category is anti-union / anti-labor, but it's a pattern I see often enough that it is worth remarking on.

gibspaulding 1y ago

Not even anti-union, but comfy enough not to feel the need for the effort/risk involved in unionizing. When you work in a trade where you could easily be killed or injured on the job the calculus is a bit different.

DrillShopper 1y ago
It's never ceases to amaze me how much software folks think that their job cannot easily injure or kill them. All of the devs I know have no work/life balance, skip doctor's appointments because of work commitments, and several I know have had strokes or heart attacks at their desk while pushing to meet a deadline. Just because you likely won't be killed in a crane collapse or someone dropping a hammer doesn't mean that the workplace is safe and that working conditions are good.
- const_cast 1y ago
  You’re quite right - working in an office kills you. It’s just mundane and slow, so we don’t really notice. But at the end of the day most people are dropping from heart disease, diabetes, obesity. Sitting 8+ hours a day is basically worse for you than smoking. Since it’s so, so slow I think we all have the belief that surely this will not happen to us. We will not be frog boiled, because surely we will notice once we are fat and hyperventilating going up the stairs. Surely, there will be some indication and we will turn the ship around. But looking around us, I don’t think so. Clearly people are getting frog boiled. And they get so beaten down, so worn, that eventually they do not fight it.
- theamk 1y ago
  If that describes you, I advice you to look at other jobs ASAP. I've seen what you describe in Amazon - high pressure, constant thread of being fired, stress, no work/life balance, etc... Many other jobs are different. Sure, things are inefficient, but the expectations are not very high either. You come in, do your 7 hours of work (or don't even come in if you are remote), and go home. It's pretty hard to get fired, so as long as you are putting a nominal effort, you'd be fine. Some people are trying to get a promotion, or are just full of energy - they may work very hard, skip work/life balance and stress out. But it's all optional, if you are happy with your initial salary, you don't have to do it. (The major annoyance with this is if you are trying to actually get things done, like ship a product, there are just _so many_ people around who seem to work very slowly, and that cannot be relied on to deliver things in time... but this is all in your head, you only stress out about this if you choose to)