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India announces plans for a Mars mission in 2013

88 points by Jerpo 14y ago

capex 14y ago
For those wondering why India doesn't first feed its citizens, here is a relevant post: http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a-1970-letter-to-a-nun-in-africa/ http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a...
- geuis 14y ago
  This strawman argument has was already old 40+ years ago, and doesn't age well like fine wine or cheese.
- kranner 14y ago
  I don't buy it. India is struggling with implementing solutions to issues that appear to be more-or-less solved for other countries; such as a working road network, public transport in most cities, picking up and distributing food harvests and a 24-hour supply of electricity. If a mission to Mars might provide fundamental insights into solving such issues, other countries seem not to have needed them. Added later: I don't believe this mission to Mars has nothing to do with good old South Asian jingoism, and outdoing the geographical neighbour I shall not name.
  - statictype 14y ago
    India does have a significantly larger population than most other countries. There's also the cultural difference. India is steeped in culture and religion that dates back farther than pretty much any other developed (or even developing) country. I'm not giving an opinion on whether this is good or bad, just pointing out that straightforward solutions in other countries may not necessarily apply here.
  - biggfoot 14y ago
    So we should drop everything and focus on that alone? We are also struggling with a massive brain drain. Such missions are going to inspire an entire generation and maybe create a sense of satisfaction and achievement. I, for one, do not doubt the importance of those in nation building. Extrapolating from the words of Dr N D Tyson, the total spending on such space missions is not as high as we may think it is. India's GDP is good enough to not look at a space mission with a jaundiced eye.
    - kranner 14y ago
      > drop everything and focus on that alone? Strawman. I'm not suggesting dropping everything. I'm only opining that a mission to Mars should be of lower priority than fulfilling basic infrastructure needs, which may be a source of satisfaction to a larger chunk of the population than the much smaller elite that can actually understand what a mission to Mars is all about.
      - biggfoot 14y ago
        Fair enough. You have a valid point. Do consider then, that the projected cost of this space mission IS far lesser than what India spends on lot of the basic infrastructural needs that you point out are missing. They are missing, yes, but if you only look at present day snapshot it won't give you the entire story. However marginal it might seem, especially to a first-world citizen (I mean no sarcasm when I say this) education is getting better every year, employment is on an average getting better. Agricultural outputs are worrying but we have had massive monsoon shortages of late. Almost everywhere the situation is made worse by corruption at every level. But we can't stop trying to fix things. As someone else points out on this thread, in the grand scheme of things this is an insignificant cost. FWIW some really intelligent high-school students might just decide their future based on news of such missions.
      - vidarh 14y ago
        Maybe. But consider the cost here is comparable to building anything up to at most a few tens of miles of decent quality highway. It's a tiny investment to start with. And this money does not magically dissipate - a lot of it effectively functions as subsidies to create high-tech jobs in the country, and a decent chunk of it will find its way back into government coffers as tax. Demonstrating the ability to send probes to Mars could also do wonders for Indian companies that wants to compete for international satellite launch business, for example. It could be a waste, but it could also very well turn out to have a good enough ROI to increase the amount of cash available for basic infrastructure needs.
  - iwwr 14y ago
    In the grand scheme of things, these are tiny expenditures ($82 mil). Consider also that India is a federal state, with significant power awarded to local states infrastructure-wise. Some places are nearly westernized, others still very much in the 19th century.
  - alokm 14y ago
    The problems in governance are not because of lack of funds. There is a lot of pilferage, corruption and systemic faults. I agree Space Missions wont help in those but it will help in ways it is supposed to (Science and Technical research).
  - retube 14y ago
    What's key to a nation's development is education. Emabarking on these kinds of enterprises provides just that: it developes the knowledge, expertise and capabilities of both individuals and institutions in fields like computing, electronics, mechanical engineerig not to mention softer skills like project management, international relations and so on. Additionally these kinds of endeavours promote national pride and inspire schoolchildren to study science. And finally, snarky for sure (assuming you're american), but people in glass houses etc. America has a large population of poor yet still finds room to spend 500bn a year on defense (whilst only a paulty few cents for NASA)
  - jlarocco 14y ago
    > India is struggling with implementing solutions to issues that appear to be more-or-less solved for other countries; such as a working road network, public transport in most cities, picking up and distributing food harvests and a 24-hour supply of electricity. If a mission to Mars might provide fundamental insights into solving such issues, other countries seem not to have needed them. Right, because the other nations sending probes into space solved all of their other problems first... I could come up with a million reasons why government money spent on space research is a bad idea, but the reasons you gave aren't on the list.
- HannibalLecter 14y ago
  Watching a scientist explain faith to a nun brought a distinguished smile to my face.
antr 14y ago
"$82 million" mission? That budget doesn't even cover the fuel cost for a rover. Production of Pu-238 for the rover has been estimated at over $90 million, this does not include planning and starting costs. Add to that the fuel for the launch vehicle; and fuel for the the cruise stage. I can't trust this article.
- arethuza 14y ago
  Really? I'd have thought that about the cheapest thing about a launch would be the fuel. The price per kg of LOX, LH2 etc. all seem fairly low to me, a quick search gives: http://www.astronautix.com/props/loxlh2.htm http://www.astronautix.com/props/loxlh2.htm
- _delirium 14y ago
  That does seem ambitiously cheap, but it's at least not orders of magnitude off. NASA currently has a call where they're taking bids for a low-cost interplanetary mission, with bids capped at $425m plus launch costs: http://www.space.com/11593-nasa-planetary-missions-shortlist-2016-launch.html http://www.space.com/11593-nasa-planetary-missions-shortlist... If you take into account cheaper labor, I could imagine India coming in considerably lower than that, though I'm not sure how much lower. They could probably also save some money by using existing, already-proven technology, e.g. by purchasing some ex-Soviet designs and equipment rather than developing all custom hardware+software. That said, I would be very surprised if this launches on-budget and on-schedule.
  - HannibalLecter 14y ago
    As someone who occasionally outsources to India, you've narrowed this article to something tangible, and you've brought this whole discussion into focus. India is obviously going to take this route and they will get their mission without the huge expense of fuel. They will get all the information they need, plus potentially access to a lot of infrastructure info they didn't have before from NASA. My guess is they'll have access to long range wifi technology which will enable them to improve their own networks and internet access, which is the heart of their economy. So essentially India is looking at this as another outsourcing project.
_debug_ 14y ago
As an Indian, I feel that this is nothing more than a neurotic problem at a national level, and that the money would have been much better spent on the hundreds of millions in poverty, or on developing national infrastructure, or on hundreds of other "first things first" projects. Let me just list out some of the titles of Karen Horney's "Neurosis and human growth", which read like a commentary on the thought process that leads to such keeping-up-with-the-joneses behaviour : 1. The Search for Glory 2. Neurotic Claims 3. The Tyranny of the Should 4. Neurotic Pride 7. General Measures to Relieve Tension 8. The Expansive Solutions : The Appeal of Mastery As a general comment, if there is only one book that you can read, read this. http://books.google.com.hk/books/about/Neurosis_and_Human_Growth.html?id=UU5nA3i013EC&redir_esc=y http://books.google.com.hk/books/about/Neurosis_and_Human_Gr...
spitx 14y ago
Corroborated. http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article3775271.ece http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article3775271.ece
owaislone 14y ago
haha
- metatronscube 14y ago
  Yeah that was my initial reaction as well, I just don't see it happening at all. I mean, we have to be serious here, they are going to put a Rover or something on Mars for $80 Million?!.......Nah. I'm not saying that's they wont EVER, but they have to join us on planet earth before they start dreaming of other planets.
  - owaislone 14y ago
    Yeah. How about providing electricity to villages and providing actual+reliable broadband connectivity to the country. People die of hunger and cold in India.
    - spitx 14y ago
      Well. That never stopped them from turning nuclear - more than a decade ago - in the face of international sanctions.
      - owaislone 14y ago
        and still people are dying of hunger. Oh right, lets feed them some plutonium
      - owaislone 14y ago
        I'm not saying they won't be able to do it or something like that. I'm just saying they just need to raise the standard of basic human living first and then start glorious missions like this. The problem with India is that it's a hollow vessel. They pretend to be glorious to the rest of the world but actually they can't even solve the most basic human needs. So much poverty, Homelessness, Electricity, Roads, Communication, Health Care, Education, Human Rights. Almost everything is fucked up in this country except "Bollywood".. (well the movies are actually more fucked up than anything else but at least bollywood is a financial success ;) FWIW, I'm from India.. sort of.
plinkplonk 14y ago
(Indian citizen fwiw) As much as I like India and its space program, it is also true that these kind of grand pronouncements happen from time to time and are not taken very seriously here. And when the announced missions/projects do happen they are inevitably over budget and delayed. E.g: cost of an unmanned lunar probe in 2008 - US $ 90 million (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1) costs for a lunar lander/rover, proposed for 2016 (delayed from the original plan for 2014) - projected cost - US $ 80 million. Note this is the projected cost (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-2) Thus, I'd be very very skeptical of a mars probe actually being launched in 2013 at the same amount of money as was spent on a lunar probe 4 years ago. See how that $80 million keeps repeating? Must be the maximum budget you can sell to a technically illiterate politician. ;-) That said, I am all for India trying to explore space, with whatever constraints. Eventually there will be a Mars probe and that is great.
- ktizo 14y ago
  Chandrayaan-1 was a pretty successful mission by all accounts though despite not lasting. It found evidence of water pretty much straight away, which was worth the budget all on its own.
gadders 14y ago
I'm so glad the UK government gives them millions of dollars in aid every year. FFS.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jcbrand 14y ago
  "Pranab Mukherjee and other Indian ministers tried to terminate Britain’s aid to their booming country last year - but relented after the British begged them to keep taking the money..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844/India-tells-Britain-We-dont-want-your-aid.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844...
  - metatronscube 14y ago
    Yeah they could at least distribute that money to the super poor, instead of turning round and smugly saying how its peanuts and they don't need it. There are folk there who would kill for a peanut to line their bellies.....literally!
    - biggfoot 14y ago
      You are confusing the two issues. India is capable of feeding its poor. The bureaucracy are too damn apathetic and corrupt to bring that into effect. But why should the ones who want to make a difference be subject to criticism that they don't deserve?
      - metatronscube 14y ago
        So building a launch system capable of landing a rover on Mars is the answer then? Its hard to confuse the point im attempting to make. I will make it clear. They should concentrate on their own populating, Government and infrastructure before they even consider attempting something like this, because in the end, who is actually going to benefit from it? A Government with these problems should be considered criminal when they cant actually provide their population with the basics. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/business/global/a-failed-food-system-in-india-prompts-an-intense-review.html?_r=1 https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/business/global/a-failed-...
mayanksinghal 14y ago
I am sorry but the attitude of half of this thread is simply disgusting; from 'haha' to you better provide food before creating space missions. I was just as skeptical about the budget and our capabilities (Yes, I am an Indian - if that wasn't obvious already) but I, even after having actually suffered from poor infrastructure and have seen failed launches as well as people suffering from hunger, support the cause wholeheartedly. If you have a problem with how your government's aid money is being spent in India, please go forward and lobby for the aid to get cut off. How we spend our tax money is a decision that we should be allowed to make. Honestly, I am surprised that HackerNews has the sentiment of pointing out expenditures on science to be extravagant and unnecessary by using social conditions as excuse, while there is so much more we could save by changing our military, social or economic standpoints. US's military budget was $663.84B in 2010 [1] while United Nations budget was just around $5.2B during the same time [2] and it's not that United States is all free from hunger or food insecurities [3]. So please, whichever country that you belong to will have issues just like us. We probably have a lot more of those than you do, but we have the right to decide which of those do we want to tackle now at the expense of being behind in our long term goals. And I request you to keep your preferences to yourself and stop forcing your morality/ethics/logic onto us in such private matters. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States [2] http://www.un.org/en/hq/dm/pdfs/oppba/Regular%20Budget.pdf [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger#In_the_United_States
- gadders 14y ago
  You have the right to determine how you spend your own money. Whilst you are still taking handouts from other nations, then it is not a private matter. The US does spend a lot on their military, and they may have some very deprived areas where people have less food than required (but I highly doubt anyone in the US starves to death). Likewise, though, the US doesn't have young girls whose job it it to collect other peoples faeces with their bare hands [1]. I would say a country that has that doesn't need a Mars mission. [1] http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o0vpXaPf_9AC&pg=PT62&lpg=PT62&dq=dalit+girls+rose+george&source=bl&ots=LaJva0SDkZ&sig=J9aTmU9mmbzMD6ZPNUja5SkF03g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1ZMrUOGDBuOi0QXZ7YG4Bw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dalit%20girls%20rose%20george&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o0vpXaPf_9AC&pg=PT62&...
rrrazdan 14y ago
If 80 million sounds too less for this mission, let us assume it balloons to 500 million. Even then look at the benefits it would bring. Make talented engineers/scientists stay in India and not migrate to places where 'more interesting' stuff is done. Check. Inspire a whole generation of people to take up science and engineering and to dream of thinking big, and actually have the confidence of knowing their dreams can come true. Check. Assorted scientific/industrial/capacity creation benefits. Check. All this at the miserly sum of 0.025 percent of your GDP. I think it is a very wise investment.
yumraj 14y ago
Anyone who thinks India doesn't need a Mars mission, please raise your hands up. Done, good. Now you've given your opinion. Please sit down and shut the F up. Whatever I write would pail in comparison to a thread posted a few days earlier: Link: http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a-1970-letter-to-a-nun-in-africa/ http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a... HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372563 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372563
- Eduardo3rd 14y ago
  I'm pretty shocked that HN wouldn't be in favor of any and all efforts to advance the space race. Everyone (deservedly) showers praise on Elon Musk whenever SpaceX has a successful launch, but when India wants to push the envelope the response is totally opposite. Some awesome stuff has come from reaching for big goals with a constrained set of resources in the past. I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of jugaad innovations the Indians can bring to the table in the aerospace sector.
svasan 14y ago
India has achieved quite a bit with its space exploration. It is the same space programme that has provided Indians with satellites that are applied to agriculture. The IRS-P6 Resourcesat has been deployed for studying cropping patterns [1]. I am sure other satellites have been used for various other agricultural applications. Frankly this "feed the poor first" meme of the western media [and some disillusioned folks] is quite irritating. The meme only goes to show that the western media does not really appreciate achievement from a "developing country". When India was on its way to launch its first rocket [way back when], some parts of the rocket were carried by the ISRO scientists pillion riding on a bicycle. Time magazine, in true western style, ridiculed that inicident. (Unfortunately I am not able to find references for this. So recounting from memory here.) Now after the moon shot with Chandrayaan-1, we know who had the last laugh. However, on this particular occasion, I think this announcement is a populist one. The Central Government has nothing to show in terms of achievement. The government's image is severely tattered, what with all the corruption charges, policy paralysis, lack of any real economic progress, etc. Nothing like whipping up some nationalism to distract the people from noticing the lack of government performance. Without the political context, I am guessing this Mars mission might provide scientists with 1) Insights on developing long range space travel 2) Insights into instrumentation technology 3) Robotics related tech And India has had collaborative associations with several space agencies from different countries. It is only adding to the already existing space related body of knowledge. All the disillusioned folks who think they are entitled to dictate policy decisions on account of their country giving "handouts" to India, feel free to take a hike. [1] http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2025000 http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2025000
anuraj 14y ago
While India is one of the poorest countries on the planet, and spends less than 1% of GDP on science and technology, India also produces largest number of engineers and a large number of science graduates every year. The country has more than 3million employed in IT jobs (not callcenter/BPO). India's space program is quite developed and ISRO's track record is not too bad. And yes, India produces more than enough food to feed its populace and more. The issue is one of primtive distribution chains, bureaucratic apathy and corruption. Foreign aid do not address these issues and is very meagre compared to India's GDP and government spending power. India needs to reform from within and that is a cultural journey.

88 points by Jerpo 14y ago

capex 14y ago

For those wondering why India doesn't first feed its citizens, here is a relevant post: http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a-1970-letter-to-a-nun-in-africa/ http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a...

geuis 14y ago
This strawman argument has was already old 40+ years ago, and doesn't age well like fine wine or cheese.
kranner 14y ago
I don't buy it. India is struggling with implementing solutions to issues that appear to be more-or-less solved for other countries; such as a working road network, public transport in most cities, picking up and distributing food harvests and a 24-hour supply of electricity. If a mission to Mars might provide fundamental insights into solving such issues, other countries seem not to have needed them. Added later: I don't believe this mission to Mars has nothing to do with good old South Asian jingoism, and outdoing the geographical neighbour I shall not name.
- statictype 14y ago
  India does have a significantly larger population than most other countries. There's also the cultural difference. India is steeped in culture and religion that dates back farther than pretty much any other developed (or even developing) country. I'm not giving an opinion on whether this is good or bad, just pointing out that straightforward solutions in other countries may not necessarily apply here.
- biggfoot 14y ago
  So we should drop everything and focus on that alone? We are also struggling with a massive brain drain. Such missions are going to inspire an entire generation and maybe create a sense of satisfaction and achievement. I, for one, do not doubt the importance of those in nation building. Extrapolating from the words of Dr N D Tyson, the total spending on such space missions is not as high as we may think it is. India's GDP is good enough to not look at a space mission with a jaundiced eye.
  - kranner 14y ago
    > drop everything and focus on that alone? Strawman. I'm not suggesting dropping everything. I'm only opining that a mission to Mars should be of lower priority than fulfilling basic infrastructure needs, which may be a source of satisfaction to a larger chunk of the population than the much smaller elite that can actually understand what a mission to Mars is all about.
    - biggfoot 14y ago
      Fair enough. You have a valid point. Do consider then, that the projected cost of this space mission IS far lesser than what India spends on lot of the basic infrastructural needs that you point out are missing. They are missing, yes, but if you only look at present day snapshot it won't give you the entire story. However marginal it might seem, especially to a first-world citizen (I mean no sarcasm when I say this) education is getting better every year, employment is on an average getting better. Agricultural outputs are worrying but we have had massive monsoon shortages of late. Almost everywhere the situation is made worse by corruption at every level. But we can't stop trying to fix things. As someone else points out on this thread, in the grand scheme of things this is an insignificant cost. FWIW some really intelligent high-school students might just decide their future based on news of such missions.
    - vidarh 14y ago
      Maybe. But consider the cost here is comparable to building anything up to at most a few tens of miles of decent quality highway. It's a tiny investment to start with. And this money does not magically dissipate - a lot of it effectively functions as subsidies to create high-tech jobs in the country, and a decent chunk of it will find its way back into government coffers as tax. Demonstrating the ability to send probes to Mars could also do wonders for Indian companies that wants to compete for international satellite launch business, for example. It could be a waste, but it could also very well turn out to have a good enough ROI to increase the amount of cash available for basic infrastructure needs.
- iwwr 14y ago
  In the grand scheme of things, these are tiny expenditures ($82 mil). Consider also that India is a federal state, with significant power awarded to local states infrastructure-wise. Some places are nearly westernized, others still very much in the 19th century.
- alokm 14y ago
  The problems in governance are not because of lack of funds. There is a lot of pilferage, corruption and systemic faults. I agree Space Missions wont help in those but it will help in ways it is supposed to (Science and Technical research).
- retube 14y ago
  What's key to a nation's development is education. Emabarking on these kinds of enterprises provides just that: it developes the knowledge, expertise and capabilities of both individuals and institutions in fields like computing, electronics, mechanical engineerig not to mention softer skills like project management, international relations and so on. Additionally these kinds of endeavours promote national pride and inspire schoolchildren to study science. And finally, snarky for sure (assuming you're american), but people in glass houses etc. America has a large population of poor yet still finds room to spend 500bn a year on defense (whilst only a paulty few cents for NASA)
- jlarocco 14y ago
  > India is struggling with implementing solutions to issues that appear to be more-or-less solved for other countries; such as a working road network, public transport in most cities, picking up and distributing food harvests and a 24-hour supply of electricity. If a mission to Mars might provide fundamental insights into solving such issues, other countries seem not to have needed them. Right, because the other nations sending probes into space solved all of their other problems first... I could come up with a million reasons why government money spent on space research is a bad idea, but the reasons you gave aren't on the list.
HannibalLecter 14y ago
Watching a scientist explain faith to a nun brought a distinguished smile to my face.

antr 14y ago

"$82 million" mission? That budget doesn't even cover the fuel cost for a rover. Production of Pu-238 for the rover has been estimated at over $90 million, this does not include planning and starting costs. Add to that the fuel for the launch vehicle; and fuel for the the cruise stage. I can't trust this article.

arethuza 14y ago
Really? I'd have thought that about the cheapest thing about a launch would be the fuel. The price per kg of LOX, LH2 etc. all seem fairly low to me, a quick search gives: http://www.astronautix.com/props/loxlh2.htm http://www.astronautix.com/props/loxlh2.htm
_delirium 14y ago
That does seem ambitiously cheap, but it's at least not orders of magnitude off. NASA currently has a call where they're taking bids for a low-cost interplanetary mission, with bids capped at $425m plus launch costs: http://www.space.com/11593-nasa-planetary-missions-shortlist-2016-launch.html http://www.space.com/11593-nasa-planetary-missions-shortlist... If you take into account cheaper labor, I could imagine India coming in considerably lower than that, though I'm not sure how much lower. They could probably also save some money by using existing, already-proven technology, e.g. by purchasing some ex-Soviet designs and equipment rather than developing all custom hardware+software. That said, I would be very surprised if this launches on-budget and on-schedule.
- HannibalLecter 14y ago
  As someone who occasionally outsources to India, you've narrowed this article to something tangible, and you've brought this whole discussion into focus. India is obviously going to take this route and they will get their mission without the huge expense of fuel. They will get all the information they need, plus potentially access to a lot of infrastructure info they didn't have before from NASA. My guess is they'll have access to long range wifi technology which will enable them to improve their own networks and internet access, which is the heart of their economy. So essentially India is looking at this as another outsourcing project.

_debug_ 14y ago

As an Indian, I feel that this is nothing more than a neurotic problem at a national level, and that the money would have been much better spent on the hundreds of millions in poverty, or on developing national infrastructure, or on hundreds of other "first things first" projects. Let me just list out some of the titles of Karen Horney's "Neurosis and human growth", which read like a commentary on the thought process that leads to such keeping-up-with-the-joneses behaviour : 1. The Search for Glory 2. Neurotic Claims 3. The Tyranny of the Should 4. Neurotic Pride 7. General Measures to Relieve Tension 8. The Expansive Solutions : The Appeal of Mastery As a general comment, if there is only one book that you can read, read this. http://books.google.com.hk/books/about/Neurosis_and_Human_Growth.html?id=UU5nA3i013EC&redir_esc=y http://books.google.com.hk/books/about/Neurosis_and_Human_Gr...

spitx 14y ago

Corroborated. http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article3775271.ece http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article3775271.ece

owaislone 14y ago

haha

metatronscube 14y ago
Yeah that was my initial reaction as well, I just don't see it happening at all. I mean, we have to be serious here, they are going to put a Rover or something on Mars for $80 Million?!.......Nah. I'm not saying that's they wont EVER, but they have to join us on planet earth before they start dreaming of other planets.
- owaislone 14y ago
  Yeah. How about providing electricity to villages and providing actual+reliable broadband connectivity to the country. People die of hunger and cold in India.
  - spitx 14y ago
    Well. That never stopped them from turning nuclear - more than a decade ago - in the face of international sanctions.
    - owaislone 14y ago
      and still people are dying of hunger. Oh right, lets feed them some plutonium
    - owaislone 14y ago
      I'm not saying they won't be able to do it or something like that. I'm just saying they just need to raise the standard of basic human living first and then start glorious missions like this. The problem with India is that it's a hollow vessel. They pretend to be glorious to the rest of the world but actually they can't even solve the most basic human needs. So much poverty, Homelessness, Electricity, Roads, Communication, Health Care, Education, Human Rights. Almost everything is fucked up in this country except "Bollywood".. (well the movies are actually more fucked up than anything else but at least bollywood is a financial success ;) FWIW, I'm from India.. sort of.

plinkplonk 14y ago

(Indian citizen fwiw) As much as I like India and its space program, it is also true that these kind of grand pronouncements happen from time to time and are not taken very seriously here. And when the announced missions/projects do happen they are inevitably over budget and delayed. E.g: cost of an unmanned lunar probe in 2008 - US $ 90 million (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1) costs for a lunar lander/rover, proposed for 2016 (delayed from the original plan for 2014) - projected cost - US $ 80 million. Note this is the projected cost (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-2) Thus, I'd be very very skeptical of a mars probe actually being launched in 2013 at the same amount of money as was spent on a lunar probe 4 years ago. See how that $80 million keeps repeating? Must be the maximum budget you can sell to a technically illiterate politician. ;-) That said, I am all for India trying to explore space, with whatever constraints. Eventually there will be a Mars probe and that is great.

ktizo 14y ago
Chandrayaan-1 was a pretty successful mission by all accounts though despite not lasting. It found evidence of water pretty much straight away, which was worth the budget all on its own.

gadders 14y ago

I'm so glad the UK government gives them millions of dollars in aid every year. FFS.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
jcbrand 14y ago
"Pranab Mukherjee and other Indian ministers tried to terminate Britain’s aid to their booming country last year - but relented after the British begged them to keep taking the money..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844/India-tells-Britain-We-dont-want-your-aid.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844...
- metatronscube 14y ago
  Yeah they could at least distribute that money to the super poor, instead of turning round and smugly saying how its peanuts and they don't need it. There are folk there who would kill for a peanut to line their bellies.....literally!
  - biggfoot 14y ago
    You are confusing the two issues. India is capable of feeding its poor. The bureaucracy are too damn apathetic and corrupt to bring that into effect. But why should the ones who want to make a difference be subject to criticism that they don't deserve?
    - metatronscube 14y ago
      So building a launch system capable of landing a rover on Mars is the answer then? Its hard to confuse the point im attempting to make. I will make it clear. They should concentrate on their own populating, Government and infrastructure before they even consider attempting something like this, because in the end, who is actually going to benefit from it? A Government with these problems should be considered criminal when they cant actually provide their population with the basics. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/business/global/a-failed-food-system-in-india-prompts-an-intense-review.html?_r=1 https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/business/global/a-failed-...

mayanksinghal 14y ago

I am sorry but the attitude of half of this thread is simply disgusting; from 'haha' to you better provide food before creating space missions. I was just as skeptical about the budget and our capabilities (Yes, I am an Indian - if that wasn't obvious already) but I, even after having actually suffered from poor infrastructure and have seen failed launches as well as people suffering from hunger, support the cause wholeheartedly. If you have a problem with how your government's aid money is being spent in India, please go forward and lobby for the aid to get cut off. How we spend our tax money is a decision that we should be allowed to make. Honestly, I am surprised that HackerNews has the sentiment of pointing out expenditures on science to be extravagant and unnecessary by using social conditions as excuse, while there is so much more we could save by changing our military, social or economic standpoints. US's military budget was $663.84B in 2010 [1] while United Nations budget was just around $5.2B during the same time [2] and it's not that United States is all free from hunger or food insecurities [3]. So please, whichever country that you belong to will have issues just like us. We probably have a lot more of those than you do, but we have the right to decide which of those do we want to tackle now at the expense of being behind in our long term goals. And I request you to keep your preferences to yourself and stop forcing your morality/ethics/logic onto us in such private matters. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States [2] http://www.un.org/en/hq/dm/pdfs/oppba/Regular%20Budget.pdf [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger#In_the_United_States

gadders 14y ago
You have the right to determine how you spend your own money. Whilst you are still taking handouts from other nations, then it is not a private matter. The US does spend a lot on their military, and they may have some very deprived areas where people have less food than required (but I highly doubt anyone in the US starves to death). Likewise, though, the US doesn't have young girls whose job it it to collect other peoples faeces with their bare hands [1]. I would say a country that has that doesn't need a Mars mission. [1] http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o0vpXaPf_9AC&pg=PT62&lpg=PT62&dq=dalit+girls+rose+george&source=bl&ots=LaJva0SDkZ&sig=J9aTmU9mmbzMD6ZPNUja5SkF03g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1ZMrUOGDBuOi0QXZ7YG4Bw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dalit%20girls%20rose%20george&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o0vpXaPf_9AC&pg=PT62&...

rrrazdan 14y ago

If 80 million sounds too less for this mission, let us assume it balloons to 500 million. Even then look at the benefits it would bring. Make talented engineers/scientists stay in India and not migrate to places where 'more interesting' stuff is done. Check. Inspire a whole generation of people to take up science and engineering and to dream of thinking big, and actually have the confidence of knowing their dreams can come true. Check. Assorted scientific/industrial/capacity creation benefits. Check. All this at the miserly sum of 0.025 percent of your GDP. I think it is a very wise investment.

yumraj 14y ago

Anyone who thinks India doesn't need a Mars mission, please raise your hands up. Done, good. Now you've given your opinion. Please sit down and shut the F up. Whatever I write would pail in comparison to a thread posted a few days earlier: Link: http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a-1970-letter-to-a-nun-in-africa/ http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a... HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372563 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372563

Eduardo3rd 14y ago
I'm pretty shocked that HN wouldn't be in favor of any and all efforts to advance the space race. Everyone (deservedly) showers praise on Elon Musk whenever SpaceX has a successful launch, but when India wants to push the envelope the response is totally opposite. Some awesome stuff has come from reaching for big goals with a constrained set of resources in the past. I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of jugaad innovations the Indians can bring to the table in the aerospace sector.

svasan 14y ago

India has achieved quite a bit with its space exploration. It is the same space programme that has provided Indians with satellites that are applied to agriculture. The IRS-P6 Resourcesat has been deployed for studying cropping patterns [1]. I am sure other satellites have been used for various other agricultural applications. Frankly this "feed the poor first" meme of the western media [and some disillusioned folks] is quite irritating. The meme only goes to show that the western media does not really appreciate achievement from a "developing country". When India was on its way to launch its first rocket [way back when], some parts of the rocket were carried by the ISRO scientists pillion riding on a bicycle. Time magazine, in true western style, ridiculed that inicident. (Unfortunately I am not able to find references for this. So recounting from memory here.) Now after the moon shot with Chandrayaan-1, we know who had the last laugh. However, on this particular occasion, I think this announcement is a populist one. The Central Government has nothing to show in terms of achievement. The government's image is severely tattered, what with all the corruption charges, policy paralysis, lack of any real economic progress, etc. Nothing like whipping up some nationalism to distract the people from noticing the lack of government performance. Without the political context, I am guessing this Mars mission might provide scientists with 1) Insights on developing long range space travel 2) Insights into instrumentation technology 3) Robotics related tech And India has had collaborative associations with several space agencies from different countries. It is only adding to the already existing space related body of knowledge. All the disillusioned folks who think they are entitled to dictate policy decisions on account of their country giving "handouts" to India, feel free to take a hike. [1] http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2025000 http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2025000

anuraj 14y ago

While India is one of the poorest countries on the planet, and spends less than 1% of GDP on science and technology, India also produces largest number of engineers and a large number of science graduates every year. The country has more than 3million employed in IT jobs (not callcenter/BPO). India's space program is quite developed and ISRO's track record is not too bad. And yes, India produces more than enough food to feed its populace and more. The issue is one of primtive distribution chains, bureaucratic apathy and corruption. Foreign aid do not address these issues and is very meagre compared to India's GDP and government spending power. India needs to reform from within and that is a cultural journey.