11 ms·

Google Play sees 47% decline in apps since start of last year

355 points by GeekyBear 2y ago

lysace 2y ago
[flagged]
- phh 2y ago
  spammers are better at bureaucracy than indie developers
  - kristopolous 2y ago
    this is also true for scammers. Their objective is to get through the machine, not construct things of value. It's an endemic property of con-artists and these systems. They're often designed poorly. How many times have you had to be dishonest to jump through hoops and get something honestly done? At my last job, their receipt checking system for recomp was terrible. We had to create receipt forgeries with the proper values that were formatted in the way the system wanted because it only accepted forgeries. It would be like a vending machine that only accepted crisp pristine flawless money so you had to feed it with counterfeits out of necessity. Anyway, don't design these systems wrong otherwise perversity thesis in full effect.
  - joshstrange 2y ago
    Depressingly true. Also the Google Play changes that require indie devs (if they have an LLC/business) must have their address publicly listed. For many of them (us) that's our home address. I'm not at all a fan of having my house's address publically available, especially since some of my apps are for local events. There is no scenario in which having my address public benefits me. Zero. Only downsides. I don't make apps that are controversial but there are a lot of less-than-sane people out there.
    - x0x0 2y ago
      fyi, a sole prop can get an address from ipostal1 for about $25 up front and $250/year. And LLCs should be using an agent. I understand this is yet another cost, and for a hobby, etc etc. Just letting people know these services exist.
      - Workaccount2 2y ago
        In my experience, these addresses are tracked and usually banned.
      - joshstrange 2y ago
        > LLCs should be using an agent. Why? Everyone says this but I don’t understand why I need to pay someone to get mail for me. It makes sense if you incorporated in a different state but I created my LLC in my home state, though the “One Stop Business Portal” (it actually was very easy). Contrast that with when I created a Delaware LLC for a previous startup which cost a couple hundred to get started and 100-200/year in fees. As for the ipostal1 I’m concerned about the address not looking legit (I don’t know what one of their addresses look like and/or if they will be banned/rejected). On top of that I don’t want to pay $15/mo for the ~10 letters I get a year for my business. See also: checks I need to deposit, not sure how that works.
        x0x0 2y ago
        LLCs / agent: to keep your address private. In most states LLC-associated addresses are a matter of public record. So if you care about privacy / crazies, app stores are far from the only place that lists that address. ipostal1: It's basically a software layer over stores that offer various services. I've had no problems with the address. Most places offer a check deposit service.
fidotron 2y ago
> One factor Google didn’t cite was the new trader status rule enforced by the EU as of this February, which began requiring developers to share their names and addresses in the app’s listing. Yep, it was probably that.
- Aerroon 2y ago
  This effectively kills apps that are made by individuals or very small businesses that can't afford an office. It's kind of incredible how the EU makes changes like this and then politicians scratch their heads about the weakness of European tech. You would think that the politicians would give some thought to that and make it easier/cheaper to fulfill these requirements, but nope. Either pay up for a company (hundreds of euros) and an office (hundreds of euros) or just have your information publicly available. And when that information becomes publicly available you will be inundated with spam. On top of that some services will then take Google street view pictures of your home and link all of that information together in an easily searchable database.
  - leonidasv 2y ago
    Apparently you can use a P.O. Box as address for this purpose[0] when registering for AppStore, which is substantially cheaper. However, Reddit says Google does not accept P.O. Boxes [1], so the only option is a "virtual" office address or something like that. A shame. [0] https://developer.apple.com/help/app-store-connect/manage-compliance-information/manage-european-union-digital-services-act-trader-requirements/ https://developer.apple.com/help/app-store-connect/manage-co... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/FlutterDev/comments/1f4nmny/comment/lp5jxqt/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FlutterDev/comments/1f4nmny/comment...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    > the EU makes changes like this The actual change is not by the EU, but by Google who interprets a EU directive and decides how to apply it to its platform. This is a big difference, in that the EU requires a verified _contact_ address for _traders_ operating on a marketplace. From there Google deciding to blanket require onerous verification on anyone publishing any app is Google's call and they should get the blame for it. For comparison you get a different application of the same rules on the AppStore, and none of that for F-Droid.
mullingitover 2y ago
> Instead of only banning broken apps that crashed, wouldn’t install, or run properly, the company said it would begin banning apps that demonstrated “limited functionality and content.” That included static apps without app-specific features, such as text-only apps or PDF-file apps. It also included apps that provided little content, like those that only offered a single wallpaper. Additionally, Google banned apps that were designed to do nothing or have no function, which may have been tests or other abandoned developer efforts. Sounds like it was a purge of zero value apps. Why was Google allowing these legions of unusable and/or garbage apps in their store in the first place? Someone padding their numbers?
- ozim 2y ago
  Because we want people to be able to create trash apps and publish them. Just like we want people to create trash blogs and trash websites so they can learn or just express themselves. Having 3rd world devs making more todo apps is not optimal but they should be able to do that and publish them. Preventing all of that also prevents good small time community apps because suddenly you have to pay money and can’t just do nice app for local communities.
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    > Because we want people to be able to create trash apps and publish them. That's a moot point, though, since you don't need Google's app store to publish apps. You can just send whatever random APK you throw together to your friend, post them on your web site, etc. There's no reason to turn the Play Store into a dumpster. If anything the fact that you can sideload on Android and install alternative stores means the Play Store should be at least as selective as Apple's store, if not more so, since failure to meet that store's standards doesn't mean the app can't be distributed elsewhere.
    - arielcostas 2y ago
      You need to if you want people to be able to discover your application or receive updates automatically (or with a single click) instead of having to reimplement the wheel with an update checker in your application, as well as logic to limit what countries/markets and devices you serve. Especially when you consider the hassle for the average user of going into Chrome, downloading your APK, accepting the big scary messages that "the application comes from an untrusted source" and "sideloading applications can be dangerous" and then installing it. People barely even like going into Google Play to download stuff.
Lammy 2y ago
This is because they removed any app from any individual-human developer who didn't care to jump through the hoops of getting and submitting a DUNS number: https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2023/07/boosting-trust-and-transparency-in-google-play.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2023/07/boosting-t... “On August 31, we’ll start rolling out these requirements for anyone creating new Play Console developer accounts. In October, we’ll share more information with existing developers about how to update and verify existing accounts.” Source: happened to me and all of my apps despite them being Free Software and offline-only. Here's one of the emails they sent me about it: https://i.imgur.com/dVzQj2p.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/dVzQj2p.jpeg Notice how they open with “Hi Developers at [my first and last name]” – developers, plural, and “at” like they only expect me to be a company and not a single person.
- cyral 2y ago
  The DUNS number thing is such a disaster even for companies with it. We had a the account under a DUNS of a subsidiary but somehow they wanted us to upload verification docs for the main company, of course not matching exactly how they expect, and there is no way to change it without jumping through a bunch of hoops. Similar issues at Apple. Eventually they let us verify the account with "company letterhead" as if that proves anything (despite them insisting the letterhead needs to say dev@company.com instead of support@company.com, again proving nothing really) For both Apple and Google it's one of those processes where the support doesn't even really seem to understand how it works (they probably don't know what automated emails are being sent, and what the dev side looks like). They would randomly close cases for "no response" immediately after they replied, ask us to upload something despite their being no way to upload it, tell us to ignore the "your account will be closed email" because it actually won't be (wrong again), etc. DUNS own lookup page doesn't even let you look up by DUNS number (so we could figure out what company some ancient number was associated with). I bet it's because you have to pay for one of their "solutions" to do this.
  - arghwhat 2y ago
    Validation issues happen all the time for subsidiaries when the parent company likes to own/manage things. Always fun when e.g. EV certificate validation (sigh windows update stuff) calls the parent company reception and asks for the manager listed as owner, and they just go "who?".
dusted 2y ago
Yeah, I dropped my apps from Play, couldn't find a way to avoid putting my personal address on there.. fuck that, I'm making something for free, and they force me to dox myself for it? Nah, I'm good.
- brap 2y ago
  By “they”, you mean the EU?
  - healsdata 2y ago
    The EU regulations don't exclude P.O. Boxes. Google choose to add that requirement.
  - campl3r 1y ago
    EU doesn't force this for free Apps, nor does it prohibit PO boxes. This is Google's choice
  - kassner 1y ago
    Google decided to make it worse than it needed. Those EU regulations are only applicable if your app makes money via IAP or subscriptions. If you are providing a free app, nothing changed, but Google decided that everyone must follow it. That is true even if you choose to not display ads (so at no point Google will send you money).
  - dusted 1y ago
    maybe, or google.. I didn't want to make it into a political thing, EU has done a lot of silly stuff, part due to malice, part to incompetence, but I'd take that any day over the "usa model" of "freedom" :)
- sieabahlpark 2y ago
  [dead]
uwemaurer 2y ago
Here is a chart with the number of Android Apps in Google Play (over time): https://www.appbrain.com/stats/number-of-android-apps https://www.appbrain.com/stats/number-of-android-apps
mococa 2y ago
I had an app on the Play Store, but I took it down. Bureaucracy isn’t for me.
GeekyBear 2y ago
Another factor: > Google also just increased the target API level requirement for apps on the Google Play Store https://tech.yahoo.com/phones/articles/google-plays-rules-killing-indie-185153949.html https://tech.yahoo.com/phones/articles/google-plays-rules-ki... We also saw established apps like iA Writer decide to get off the treadmill. > In order to allow our users to access their Google Drive on their phones we had to rewrite privacy statements, update documents, and pass a series of security checks, all while facing a barrage of new, ever-shifting requirements. https://ia.net/topics/our-android-app-is-frozen-in-carbonite?utm_source=syndication https://ia.net/topics/our-android-app-is-frozen-in-carbonite...
- mrj 2y ago
  Yup, this caused me months of work. Many people chose not to bother.
revskill 2y ago
Too late. This google store is full of scams apps. Ah no, it's intentionally made for scammers to boost the Google Play users. So it's worth to kill itself. Your dirty marketing tacticts is cheap, human become more smarter these days.
jsnell 2y ago
For me the really unreasonable change was the app testing requirements on non-corporate developers. Having to get 20 users to beta test an unlisted Android app for two weeks before getting it on the store is not a reasonable thing to require for hobby projects. I'm not sure I even know 20 Android users well enough that I'd feel comfortable asking for that level of engagement from them. It's a particularly bad policy to launch with existing developers grandfathered out, because the policy probably looks really successful to start with due to the difference in new developer vs. old developer populations -- the entities who are right now making most of the quality apps aren't affected. What's being affected is the pipeline of new developers, but the effect of killing that pipeline won't become obvious for years.
- DecentShoes 2y ago
  This is absolutely insane and will kill the app I'm making. Google has too much power. Is there some commercial service I can just pay to do this?
  - aetimmes 2y ago
    It's called "20 BlueStacks instances in a trenchcoat"
    - hampowder 1y ago
      Yes there is, look on Fiverr. It's crazy to have to pay someone to do this, particularly because Google don't want you to use paid testers. The idea was to stop spammy apps, i believe. But they've really thrown the baby out with the bathwater here, making it really hard for small-scale innovation.
- xdfgh1112 2y ago
  Same here, android already seems less profitable than iOS but this killed any interest I had in supporting android.
- sib 2y ago
  In the US, there are probably a significant number of hobbyist developers who don't even know 20 Android users.
pjmlp 2y ago
It doesn't surprise me. There are more apps than people care about. Nowadays I only install games, or apps for services where I can't do otherwise. The time for "there is an app for that" is long gone, and the push for developers to artificially update their apps for whatever was presented as great Google IO innovation, or be out of the store, can only lead to outcomes like this. I imagine that the numbers on Appstore aren't much different.
- neuroelectron 2y ago
  Same. I have a bunch of Apple devices now and the only apps I install are vlc, kindle and brave.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
  It's also impossible to find good apps. The store has flags indicating whether an app uses in-app purchases or ads, and knows the file size of apps (which is a good proxy of how much data-collecting bloatware is inside). It doesn't let you easily see the size before installing and doesn't let you search by any of these criteria. So if you wanted to publish a high quality, free, ad-free app, you would immediately be crowded out by the apps that can spend money on ads and SEO because they're full of crap, and your potential users have no chance of finding your app. Given how easy this would be to implement, it seems obvious that this is an intentional, user-hostile choice because Google doesn't profit off these apps.
  - vivzkestrel 1y ago
    Each app should be rated by a new criteria 1) Size 2) Speed 3) Design 4) Customer Support Speed 5) Average downtime 6) Functionally Satisfactory Score
kshri24 2y ago
Technology was supposed to get rid of most of bureaucracy and move the World towards automation. These FAANG companies have instead successfully integrated bureaucracy with technology and have made bureaucracy permanent. Instead of automating away bureaucracy these companies have automated away customer service.
- dmix 2y ago
  The lazy response to any new risk or problem is to just layer on new rules and processes. Large organizations always end up with those things defining their workplace culture (risk aversion, checkbox culture) and that worldview filters down to the decisions which impact customers.
- staplers 2y ago
  "Never be deceived that the rich will permit you to vote away their wealth." - Lucy Parsons
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  they do these things in response to governmental pressure.
- SupremumLimit 2y ago
  It is a serious mistake to think that technology can remove bureaucracy. Indeed, technology by its nature makes bureaucracy a lot more rigid. Bureaucracy is about homogenising processes and erasing individual differences, and software reinforces these properties because it allows even less human input or deviation from the process. (That isn't true of all software, just software that is intended to somehow deal with large numbers of people uniformly.)
  - kshri24 1y ago
    When I said remove bureaucracy I meant remove bureaucracy from people's lives. Obviously it will exist behind the curtains. I agree with you that software reinforces bureaucratic properties and it should. That is what it was supposed to do. But technology failed when it comes to rectification of any deviations in bureaucratic processes. For example, assume you are submitting a form and the address is incorrect/not matching exactly what is stored in the database; software should (rightly) flag it and have a human review it and do the necessary correction. Instead we have the worst of both worlds, where the software flags the problem but there is no human in the loop anymore. Even the human is automated out. So the problem is never fixed. Instead, the customer/client who is interacting with the software is indirectly made aware of the internal bureaucratic process but has no recourse.
serial_dev 2y ago
Gee, I wonder why. Publishing on the Play Store for indie devs or hobby projects just doesn’t make any sense. You need to jump though so many hoops and doxx yourself in the process, only to make basically no money with the apps, and even if you miraculously do, risk getting kicked out of their platform without any way to contact a competent human. Even before all this, the general consensus amongst solo app devs was that “don’t waste your time with Android”, now add about a hundred hour of bureaucracy to even get started with your first app, the choice is obvious for many. I was a long time Android user and switched to iOS because the apps there are just better, I honestly think that Google of running the Android ecosystem into the ground and only the big players will want to go though this mess. As a Flutter developer, it makes me want to switch to other technologies, because if Android loses its appeal, Flutter, another Google product, offers basically nothing. On web, it scks, on iOS SwiftUI will always have an advantage, Android as discussed is in steady and fast decline, and who the hell needs Flutter desktop apps that have poor integration with the operating system…
- throwaway743 2y ago
  Ugh I'm so fucking fed up with the Play Store and Admob, and how they have no meaningful recourse for solving issues or providing support. It makes me feel hopeless and helpless knowing I have little options outside of relying on them (don't have any apple devices to test on or build my app) and knowing they could give two shits. Especially seeing that their contact options for Admob have been broken for years now and they refuse to fix it or provide actual help. And there seems like there's no way to get them to budge, like even through our reps. Fuck them. I hope they collapse.
- shakabrah 2y ago
  Amen. I write Flutter at my day job and am working toward an exit ramp every day.
  - xdfgh1112 2y ago
    And here I am writing flutter as a hobby and dreaming I could do it as a day job! That sucks
mvieira38 2y ago
Good, I hope it dies off and we get to a state of decentralized app distribution just like PCs have. App stores suck, I don't need Google of all companies knowing every single one of the apps I have on my phone
- noisy_boy 1y ago
  What would actually happen in that case is exodus towards App Store which I'll not be happy about. For all its issues, I vastly prefer the flexibility of Android over the walled-garden and would hate to leave it.
- ddingus 1y ago
  It is also nice to keep packages we like for whatever reason.
leesalminen 2y ago
My app’s organization is outside the “west”. So in order to complete verification with Google I had to pay some subcontractor of Dunn&Bradstreet almost $500 to get the DUNS. Then I had to get an original certified copy of the organization’s registration from the national registry. Then have an official notarized translation to English and get all that apostilled (another $500 through a service). Also, Google support refused to tell me what set of documents they would accept. I had to figure it out myself.
- kylehotchkiss 2y ago
  Sounds like you just found a business - offer this to others, you could be the fourth party in the transaction!
  - noisy_boy 1y ago
    Do it via an app listed on... Play Store.
zmmmmm 2y ago
Sounds like there are a range of reasons, but the bigger picture explanation is : Google no longer cares about incentivizing apps to be on the store. The mobile OS wars are over: every company and dev that wants to do anything is locked into having to provide an Android and iOS app no matter how difficult it is, so all the incentives are for Apple / Google to insulate themselves from risk now by raising the bar on devs. We need to start exercising the minimal rights / capabilities to ship alternative app stores on these platforms. Easier said than done.
- aucisson_masque 2y ago
  Android already has many alternative app store. I believe there is nothing currently for paid app (beside OEM store like galaxy store or Huawei) but if there is a need it's absolutely possible to do. Apple side on the other hand, good luck with that. Even in Europe they made the rules so strict the third party app store are basically dead.
- SchemaLoad 2y ago
  Web APIs are also more capable than ever before and can be added as icons on the home page. For an individual developer, you are probably better off just doing a web app.
- xdfgh1112 2y ago
  I dunno, many developers already choose to ignore android entirely because it's less profitable. Raising the bar will only encourage that. At least for me the dox your own address + onerous testing requirements make android extremely unappealing I guess I could publish on fdroid but why bother? The android platform clearly doesn't care about me.
  - Keyframe 2y ago
    many developers already choose to ignore android entirely because it's less profitable source? all I can find by googling around is about the same number of apps with a bias towards playstore.
olalonde 2y ago
Maybe related? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43804937 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43804937 I don't get the new D-U-N-S number requirement. Actual scammers can easily jump through the hoops. It's the small independent devs that won't bother with the bureaucracy, especially those that do it for free.
braiamp 2y ago
The real issue here isn't what the app store sets as requirements. It's that the users can't avoid it to get the applications (or doing so it too confusing).
phendrenad2 2y ago
I miss the freewheeling days of Android apps. You'd find all kinds of apps made by solo devs as a labor of love. Later, Google largely killed those apps by severely downranking them in the play store algorithm, and made searching in the play store "we'll show you what we want to show you, the filters do nothing", but you could still install a secondary app store in CyanogenMod and find those weird and fun apps. Is there any of this left? I've heard that the secondary app stores have fallen into disrepair.
- umbra07 2y ago
  F-Droid is what you want. You can find all manners of apps - libre replacements for all your stock system apps, alternate launchers, games, clients for your favorite desktop apps (ex: mpv), and even a proper terminal emulator - complete with a package manager.
theflyestpilot 2y ago
wonder if PWAs will normalize under all this grip tightening.
anothereng 2y ago
Google didnt let me keep my developer account because I couldnt verify address. The only ways they accept address is with bills that are not in my name so I couldnt verify my address. It's ridiculous given that I have an android phone a gmail account and they know where I live based on location data.
- KoolKat23 2y ago
  That's absurd, every other industry requires proof of address to be IN your name. What are Google doing :/ malicious compliance perhaps?
jonplackett 2y ago
I’m an iOS dev coming to Android because I was lucky enough to recently make an iOS app that’s making enough money to be worth porting. The developer experience of PlayStore is SO BAD compared to the AppStore - which isn’t even that good to start with. It’s like all the software and websites are just made by people who don’t care at all if you use it or not.
tomrod 2y ago
F-Droid needs more apps!
- mcv 2y ago
  Are there specific apps it's missing? I don't think more is necessarily better.
- flykespice 1y ago
  unfortunately crappy UX experience + shaming closed-source apps with "anti-feature" labels is keeping it away from growing
ggm 2y ago
How very American that the requirement to register is to obtain a private fee for service business identification, not some kind of institutionalised public interest registry.
- sib 2y ago
  Wait - you mean the EU-driven requirement?
  - ggm 2y ago
    Yes. It's totally bizarre that a formalised business identity is held in a commercial enterprise, not some kind of not for profit mutuality or a state enterprise. Who requires them to do it isn't the point, what Google decided is the formalism to meet EU requirements is the point. Here is a european collated list of worldwide business registries. The Australian one is a gov.au. the US one is the SEC not D&B https://ebra.be/worldwide-registers/?location=au https://ebra.be/worldwide-registers/?location=au
    - sib 1y ago
      The SEC is not a registry of all businesses in the US. The SEC concerns itself with business that sell shares to the public; this would not cover (for example) a single-member LLC that a software developer might use. In the US, businesses are chartered and registered by the states, not the Federal government. There is no Federal equivalent to the UK's Companies House.
      - ggm 1y ago
        Which in itself is quite bizarre. You are of course right about the SEC although private companies raising debt securities fall under its role.
mcv 2y ago
I don't know if it's related, but I recently started using apps from f-droid. Maybe I should have done that much earlier, but necessity forced ky hand. I just can't find good apps on the Play Store anymore. Everything is enshittified. Even simple SMS apps have ads and in-app purchases. For what!? F-droid apps are simply better these days.
- nmstoker 2y ago
  What do you think maintains this difference on the F-droid side, given there are presumably lower barriers to entry with F-droid?
  - jlokier 1y ago
    Actually, F-Droid has quite strict requirements on the apps it will accept, and it enforces them. Low-effort spammy apps with ads and in-app purchases are unlikely to be accepted. Standard Android in-app purchases, efficient notifications, or ads which use Google services, won't be accepted at all, though FLOSS versions of those things are ok in principle. From https://f-droid.org/docs/Inclusion_Policy/ https://f-droid.org/docs/Inclusion_Policy/ : > All applications in the repository must be Free, Libre and Open Source Software (FLOSS) – for example, released under a GPL or Apache license. > Every effort is made to verify that this is actually the case, both by visual inspection of the source, and by building the application from the published source. > We cannot build apps using Google’s proprietary “Play Services”. > We cannot build apps using proprietary tracking/analytic dependencies like Crashlytics and Firebase. > We cannot build apps using proprietary ad libraries. > The source code for the application must be maintained in a publicly accessible Version Control System which we have support for > The original app author has been notified (and does not oppose the inclusion).
daedrdev 2y ago
Weren't the number of apps already down by like 60% since 2016?
wnevets 2y ago
Do people still actively care about phone apps? I avoid installing them whenever possible.
AtNightWeCode 2y ago
Google has always been hostile towards indiedevs but they have become complete garbage. They do things like removing apps because they have "banned" keywords in the naming. Apps that been around for +5 years. Or you have to comply to some new bs. Or they tried to force you to use Google pay and so on. Google play has always been totally corrupt. But it is even worse today. The amount of trash spreading through their own programs is massive and then they are banning apps that does not even claim any permissions. As always with Google, money talks. If you are a small corp you are pretty much screwed. If you are a big client Google will call you and tell you how they fixed your issues before you even knew about them. I really hate working with Google and hope they get split up and destroyed in the anti-trust case. (Yeah, I know the corp is named Alphabet)
maxoakland 2y ago
This is phrased like a bad thing, but it’s actually a good thing. I’m an iOS user and I can tell you Apple is not doing a good job keeping the App Store free of scams. I’m guessing Google is doing a much better job and this is the result
- Retr0id 2y ago
  Genuine question, how do you encounter the scams? I haven't "browsed" the app store for a long time, I only go to find an app if I already know it exists.
- alwillis 2y ago
  I’m an iOS user and I can tell you Apple is not doing a good job keeping the App Store free of scams. No App Store is going to be 100% free of scams. In my experience of having downloaded several hundred iOS apps over the years, it’s pretty difficult for most people to download a scam app unless a user is specifically trying to download free, fringe apps from developers you’ve never heard of. But if you’re interested in mainstream apps that address real issues by developers who are attempting to make excellent apps that take advantage of Apple’s technology and ecosystem, the quality of iOS apps has never been better. I just checked—the revenue of the App Store was over $100 billion dollars in FY 2024. That says to me customers are finding useful apps they’ll willing to subscribe to.
  - vivzkestrel 1y ago
    but it can be made 99% free from 90% right ?
  - bigyabai 1y ago
    > That says to me customers are finding useful apps they’ll willing to subscribe to. My kingdom to hear Microsoft argue that in the IE case. "Yes, we're obviating serious competition and deliberately hamstringing our competitors. But just look at how large the Internet Explorer install-base is! Clearly users are deriving value from our browser. Also it stops viruses or something."
1970-01-01 2y ago
Good riddance! Apps (in general, there are many exceptions) are a slimy way to put your idea into the world. The vast majority of apps can simply be a website with zero loss of function. If you're not doing something special with my phone hardware, I'm absolutely not downloading your app.
fracus 2y ago
I've starting using less and less apps as the years go by. No more facebook, insta, twitter, tic toc. A lot of very useful apps like a calculator, flashlight, magnifyer, all that stuff is stock.
- muzani 2y ago
  Unfortunately, buying basic things requires an app now. Paying off my credit card and house requires an app. Getting a "taxi" needs to be done by app. School updates for tomorrow's homework go through Telegram, telling the teachers to send my daughter down from class requires WhatsApp. Whitelisting visitors to come in requires a security management app. I have an autogate that can't be opened manually. It came with a remote, but only one, so we use an app to open the gate. My door has a fingerprint sensor that malfunctions when it's humid. So I need to open my front door with an app and because it's a free app, I have to watch an ad to open my front door.
  - rocketvole 2y ago
    ...Are you serious about opening the door? What app/company makes your door?
    - muzani 2y ago
      It's this app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tongtongsuo.app https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tongtongsu... It's not the same company as the one that made the door. To be fair, the door is a one time purchase and they shouldn't have to maintain it, so it's all done with a third party app. The hardware is solid, it's just the software that's a bit dodgy. The lock can be opened with fingerprint or NFC tag, but it freezes after 3 tries. The master key is a physical key or the app. I didn't get a fingerprint door to use keys, and the keyhole is also at a weird angle from beneath the door. So the app it is. It sounds ridiculous but I need apps for everything anyway, thanks to 2FA. I can't even log in to work without an app.
  - ddingus 1y ago
    These seem like poor tech choices more than "an app is required to buy basic things." When the whole "there is an app for that" mess started, I could be found saying, there is a browser for that too! You are right about one thing, and that is everyone is asking whether people have their app. This is constant. My answer has and will continue to be, "nope." And yes, I have a browser for that. The apps I find worth using are all enabling in some way, sensor data, advanced calculator, viewers and the like have real value. Wrapping transactions into apps where the sole purpose is data harvesting and blasting me ads and offers, adds ZERO net value. Products that require an app should be considered broken. Seriously. All of that pushes people, who for whatever reason choose app dependency, into scenarios like you shared with us here. That stuff us broken man. You really would benefit from a general reconsideration of your product and service selection means and methods. What is the product value when "needs your phone is off the table. Does it have value without a phone? Should it? (In almost every case, yes!) Please don't take my comment as an attack. Nothing personal here, no judgment either. You are by no means alone. M
jaimex2 2y ago
Google's loss I had useful free apps deleted. They worked, now the alternatives are all ad infested slop. I CBF jumping through their hoops, might just move them to alternative stores
everyone 2y ago
Apple have been forced by EU to allow the web and PWA's to work on iOS, so there is no longer a need to make natives apps for both Android and iOS anymore, u can just make a PWA.
mgkimsal 2y ago
Can you not just install an android app from a website? I always thought that was part of the attraction of Android - you could install without an app store requirement like ios. Actually.... I seem to remember building a couple android apps and just linking from a website but... that was... 8(!) years ago. Is that still a thing? Was it ever, or did I just misremember that?
- umbra07 2y ago
  Yes, but: 1. It's disabled by default. You have to dig around in your phone's settings to enable APK installations, and APK installations through the specific app you prompted the installer from. And if the developer hasn't updated the app for recent versions of Android, Google will throw up a antivirus-esque "warning this app is unsafe blah blah" prompt. 2. You can't automatically update an app if you manually installed it through an APK. There are apps that can kind of do this (automatically download APK from source website on new release, notify user). But that's clunky and not suitable unless your audience is FOSS-land. Oh, and the user still has to manually click the install button for each app they update this way. No silent updates unless you're rooted. This makes the distribution of apks through your own processes wholly unviable unless your app is mandatory for your users (I. E for work/school), or your user base is Android FOSS enthusiasts - who probably prefer that you use F-Droid (3rd party FOSS appstore) anyways
  - mgkimsal 1y ago
    Thanks. I've asked people to do testing like this, and with limited people it was manageable. And the last android app I did was internal to a company with maybe 15 users. Getting people to do install/update was ... manageable, just.
  - iggldiggl 1y ago
    > It's disabled by default. You have to dig around in your phone's settings to enable APK installations At least since the time that the "install apps from unknown sources" permission was migrated from a global toggle to an app-specific permission (maybe even before that?), the dialogue that pops up to tell you that installation has been blocked has a button for directly taking you to the correct settings screen for toggling the permission, so it's just two extra taps. Sure, at scale even that will confuse/scare off some users, but it's not insurmountable and nowhere near as obscure as having "to dig around in your phone's settings" – just two extra taps and you're good to go (unless your phone manufacturer has made things more complicated there, which does remain a possibility).
mastazi 1y ago
As others have noted this is basically security theater because many legitimate apps are being removed and many spammy apps are staying up. I work at a company that created some whitelabel apps for some popular brands and recently the apps have been taken down for "impersonation" despite the fact that we presented all the necessary paperwork mutliple times before (documents signed by the legal owners of the trademarks). This supposed "cleanup" operation of the Play Store is just a very sloppy attempt by Google, a company that should be able to do better given the its size and resources.
Mr_Minderbinder 1y ago
I cannot remember the last time I downloaded and installed an app from the Play Store (it must have been several years ago). Instead I have been getting apps from GitHub, F-Droid or the developer’s website.
caseyy 1y ago
I don't remember who wrote the report, but a recent games industry report made its way to my desk, and it stated that considerably more games were removed from mobile stores than added over the last few quarters. I think that could be due to some uncertainty in the market about the future of mobile gaming. Mobile AAA never caught on, and the industry tried it with CoD, Civilization, Mario, Fortnite, Resident Evil, GTA, Assassin's Creed, and others. Only Pokémon Go and Genshin were exceptions on the AAA side due to strong mechanics (Pokémon: ARG appeal, Genshin: gacha profits). Meanwhile, the small-budget side has become extremely overcrowded by trash-level asset flips, gachas, and ads with vague game elements. Many genuinely talented game developers are asking, "Does my game fit in the mobile markets?" and concluding that the answer is probably closer to no than a yes. Maybe this is just the natural life cycle of the stores. Moderation doesn't keep up with use, leading to disappointed users and abandonment. Do you remember when we used to check the App Store occasionally for new fun apps during the iPhone 4/4S era? We'd get like an accelerometer app that turns a phone into a silly beer pint, and it'd be quite clever and novel. Or we'd download pedometers, and that was quite a novel and smart tool to track exercise. All because they were promoted on the stores. That's a distant memory for me; I only go to the stores to download the things I already know I need, they have turned into package managers for me.
- FMecha 1y ago
  Mid-budget mobile game devs in Asia not only relies on gacha, but also sexual/parasocial appeal (with the characters), to boot.
kassner 1y ago
I’ve read through the comments here, and something most people here don’t get is the importance of App Stores for discoverability. The first thing non-developers think when you tell them “download xyz app” is to open the App/Play Store and search there. If your stuff isn’t there it just doesn’t exist. That’s specially true for 3rd-world countries (I can only speak about Brazil, but my guess India would be pretty similar), where for a long while obtaining apps was a dice roll if you’d get a malware or not. Eventually the Play Store made it safer, but also created a group memory of “stuff outside Play Store is cut-and-dry unsafe”. In the circles I have access, people would hesitate to even open your website if you tell them to, but saying “my app is on the Play Store” makes it instantly “safe” in their minds. I’m still in the process of bringing my App to the Play Store (after being on Apple’s for 3 months now), and honestly catering to Android with the new rules has been the biggest regret in my 20-year career so far. Yet, there is no alternative, because every time I tell people about my project, they always come back saying “I couldn’t find it” when the project name is literally a domain name.
-__---____-ZXyw 1y ago
Great development. F-Droid continues to be great.
leonardo41 1y ago
[flagged]

355 points by GeekyBear 2y ago

lysace 2y ago

[flagged]

phh 2y ago
spammers are better at bureaucracy than indie developers
- kristopolous 2y ago
  this is also true for scammers. Their objective is to get through the machine, not construct things of value. It's an endemic property of con-artists and these systems. They're often designed poorly. How many times have you had to be dishonest to jump through hoops and get something honestly done? At my last job, their receipt checking system for recomp was terrible. We had to create receipt forgeries with the proper values that were formatted in the way the system wanted because it only accepted forgeries. It would be like a vending machine that only accepted crisp pristine flawless money so you had to feed it with counterfeits out of necessity. Anyway, don't design these systems wrong otherwise perversity thesis in full effect.
- joshstrange 2y ago
  Depressingly true. Also the Google Play changes that require indie devs (if they have an LLC/business) must have their address publicly listed. For many of them (us) that's our home address. I'm not at all a fan of having my house's address publically available, especially since some of my apps are for local events. There is no scenario in which having my address public benefits me. Zero. Only downsides. I don't make apps that are controversial but there are a lot of less-than-sane people out there.
  - x0x0 2y ago
    fyi, a sole prop can get an address from ipostal1 for about $25 up front and $250/year. And LLCs should be using an agent. I understand this is yet another cost, and for a hobby, etc etc. Just letting people know these services exist.
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      In my experience, these addresses are tracked and usually banned.
    - joshstrange 2y ago
      > LLCs should be using an agent. Why? Everyone says this but I don’t understand why I need to pay someone to get mail for me. It makes sense if you incorporated in a different state but I created my LLC in my home state, though the “One Stop Business Portal” (it actually was very easy). Contrast that with when I created a Delaware LLC for a previous startup which cost a couple hundred to get started and 100-200/year in fees. As for the ipostal1 I’m concerned about the address not looking legit (I don’t know what one of their addresses look like and/or if they will be banned/rejected). On top of that I don’t want to pay $15/mo for the ~10 letters I get a year for my business. See also: checks I need to deposit, not sure how that works.
      - x0x0 2y ago
        LLCs / agent: to keep your address private. In most states LLC-associated addresses are a matter of public record. So if you care about privacy / crazies, app stores are far from the only place that lists that address. ipostal1: It's basically a software layer over stores that offer various services. I've had no problems with the address. Most places offer a check deposit service.

fidotron 2y ago

> One factor Google didn’t cite was the new trader status rule enforced by the EU as of this February, which began requiring developers to share their names and addresses in the app’s listing. Yep, it was probably that.

Aerroon 2y ago
This effectively kills apps that are made by individuals or very small businesses that can't afford an office. It's kind of incredible how the EU makes changes like this and then politicians scratch their heads about the weakness of European tech. You would think that the politicians would give some thought to that and make it easier/cheaper to fulfill these requirements, but nope. Either pay up for a company (hundreds of euros) and an office (hundreds of euros) or just have your information publicly available. And when that information becomes publicly available you will be inundated with spam. On top of that some services will then take Google street view pictures of your home and link all of that information together in an easily searchable database.
- leonidasv 2y ago
  Apparently you can use a P.O. Box as address for this purpose[0] when registering for AppStore, which is substantially cheaper. However, Reddit says Google does not accept P.O. Boxes [1], so the only option is a "virtual" office address or something like that. A shame. [0] https://developer.apple.com/help/app-store-connect/manage-compliance-information/manage-european-union-digital-services-act-trader-requirements/ https://developer.apple.com/help/app-store-connect/manage-co... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/FlutterDev/comments/1f4nmny/comment/lp5jxqt/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FlutterDev/comments/1f4nmny/comment...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  > the EU makes changes like this The actual change is not by the EU, but by Google who interprets a EU directive and decides how to apply it to its platform. This is a big difference, in that the EU requires a verified _contact_ address for _traders_ operating on a marketplace. From there Google deciding to blanket require onerous verification on anyone publishing any app is Google's call and they should get the blame for it. For comparison you get a different application of the same rules on the AppStore, and none of that for F-Droid.

mullingitover 2y ago

> Instead of only banning broken apps that crashed, wouldn’t install, or run properly, the company said it would begin banning apps that demonstrated “limited functionality and content.” That included static apps without app-specific features, such as text-only apps or PDF-file apps. It also included apps that provided little content, like those that only offered a single wallpaper. Additionally, Google banned apps that were designed to do nothing or have no function, which may have been tests or other abandoned developer efforts. Sounds like it was a purge of zero value apps. Why was Google allowing these legions of unusable and/or garbage apps in their store in the first place? Someone padding their numbers?

ozim 2y ago
Because we want people to be able to create trash apps and publish them. Just like we want people to create trash blogs and trash websites so they can learn or just express themselves. Having 3rd world devs making more todo apps is not optimal but they should be able to do that and publish them. Preventing all of that also prevents good small time community apps because suddenly you have to pay money and can’t just do nice app for local communities.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  > Because we want people to be able to create trash apps and publish them. That's a moot point, though, since you don't need Google's app store to publish apps. You can just send whatever random APK you throw together to your friend, post them on your web site, etc. There's no reason to turn the Play Store into a dumpster. If anything the fact that you can sideload on Android and install alternative stores means the Play Store should be at least as selective as Apple's store, if not more so, since failure to meet that store's standards doesn't mean the app can't be distributed elsewhere.
  - arielcostas 2y ago
    You need to if you want people to be able to discover your application or receive updates automatically (or with a single click) instead of having to reimplement the wheel with an update checker in your application, as well as logic to limit what countries/markets and devices you serve. Especially when you consider the hassle for the average user of going into Chrome, downloading your APK, accepting the big scary messages that "the application comes from an untrusted source" and "sideloading applications can be dangerous" and then installing it. People barely even like going into Google Play to download stuff.

Lammy 2y ago

This is because they removed any app from any individual-human developer who didn't care to jump through the hoops of getting and submitting a DUNS number: https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2023/07/boosting-trust-and-transparency-in-google-play.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2023/07/boosting-t... “On August 31, we’ll start rolling out these requirements for anyone creating new Play Console developer accounts. In October, we’ll share more information with existing developers about how to update and verify existing accounts.” Source: happened to me and all of my apps despite them being Free Software and offline-only. Here's one of the emails they sent me about it: https://i.imgur.com/dVzQj2p.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/dVzQj2p.jpeg Notice how they open with “Hi Developers at [my first and last name]” – developers, plural, and “at” like they only expect me to be a company and not a single person.

cyral 2y ago
The DUNS number thing is such a disaster even for companies with it. We had a the account under a DUNS of a subsidiary but somehow they wanted us to upload verification docs for the main company, of course not matching exactly how they expect, and there is no way to change it without jumping through a bunch of hoops. Similar issues at Apple. Eventually they let us verify the account with "company letterhead" as if that proves anything (despite them insisting the letterhead needs to say dev@company.com instead of support@company.com, again proving nothing really) For both Apple and Google it's one of those processes where the support doesn't even really seem to understand how it works (they probably don't know what automated emails are being sent, and what the dev side looks like). They would randomly close cases for "no response" immediately after they replied, ask us to upload something despite their being no way to upload it, tell us to ignore the "your account will be closed email" because it actually won't be (wrong again), etc. DUNS own lookup page doesn't even let you look up by DUNS number (so we could figure out what company some ancient number was associated with). I bet it's because you have to pay for one of their "solutions" to do this.
- arghwhat 2y ago
  Validation issues happen all the time for subsidiaries when the parent company likes to own/manage things. Always fun when e.g. EV certificate validation (sigh windows update stuff) calls the parent company reception and asks for the manager listed as owner, and they just go "who?".

dusted 2y ago

Yeah, I dropped my apps from Play, couldn't find a way to avoid putting my personal address on there.. fuck that, I'm making something for free, and they force me to dox myself for it? Nah, I'm good.

brap 2y ago
By “they”, you mean the EU?
- healsdata 2y ago
  The EU regulations don't exclude P.O. Boxes. Google choose to add that requirement.
- campl3r 1y ago
  EU doesn't force this for free Apps, nor does it prohibit PO boxes. This is Google's choice
- kassner 1y ago
  Google decided to make it worse than it needed. Those EU regulations are only applicable if your app makes money via IAP or subscriptions. If you are providing a free app, nothing changed, but Google decided that everyone must follow it. That is true even if you choose to not display ads (so at no point Google will send you money).
- dusted 1y ago
  maybe, or google.. I didn't want to make it into a political thing, EU has done a lot of silly stuff, part due to malice, part to incompetence, but I'd take that any day over the "usa model" of "freedom" :)
sieabahlpark 2y ago
[dead]

uwemaurer 2y ago

Here is a chart with the number of Android Apps in Google Play (over time): https://www.appbrain.com/stats/number-of-android-apps https://www.appbrain.com/stats/number-of-android-apps

mococa 2y ago

I had an app on the Play Store, but I took it down. Bureaucracy isn’t for me.

GeekyBear 2y ago

Another factor: > Google also just increased the target API level requirement for apps on the Google Play Store https://tech.yahoo.com/phones/articles/google-plays-rules-killing-indie-185153949.html https://tech.yahoo.com/phones/articles/google-plays-rules-ki... We also saw established apps like iA Writer decide to get off the treadmill. > In order to allow our users to access their Google Drive on their phones we had to rewrite privacy statements, update documents, and pass a series of security checks, all while facing a barrage of new, ever-shifting requirements. https://ia.net/topics/our-android-app-is-frozen-in-carbonite?utm_source=syndication https://ia.net/topics/our-android-app-is-frozen-in-carbonite...

mrj 2y ago
Yup, this caused me months of work. Many people chose not to bother.

revskill 2y ago

Too late. This google store is full of scams apps. Ah no, it's intentionally made for scammers to boost the Google Play users. So it's worth to kill itself. Your dirty marketing tacticts is cheap, human become more smarter these days.

jsnell 2y ago

For me the really unreasonable change was the app testing requirements on non-corporate developers. Having to get 20 users to beta test an unlisted Android app for two weeks before getting it on the store is not a reasonable thing to require for hobby projects. I'm not sure I even know 20 Android users well enough that I'd feel comfortable asking for that level of engagement from them. It's a particularly bad policy to launch with existing developers grandfathered out, because the policy probably looks really successful to start with due to the difference in new developer vs. old developer populations -- the entities who are right now making most of the quality apps aren't affected. What's being affected is the pipeline of new developers, but the effect of killing that pipeline won't become obvious for years.

DecentShoes 2y ago
This is absolutely insane and will kill the app I'm making. Google has too much power. Is there some commercial service I can just pay to do this?
- aetimmes 2y ago
  It's called "20 BlueStacks instances in a trenchcoat"
  - hampowder 1y ago
    Yes there is, look on Fiverr. It's crazy to have to pay someone to do this, particularly because Google don't want you to use paid testers. The idea was to stop spammy apps, i believe. But they've really thrown the baby out with the bathwater here, making it really hard for small-scale innovation.
xdfgh1112 2y ago
Same here, android already seems less profitable than iOS but this killed any interest I had in supporting android.
sib 2y ago
In the US, there are probably a significant number of hobbyist developers who don't even know 20 Android users.

pjmlp 2y ago

It doesn't surprise me. There are more apps than people care about. Nowadays I only install games, or apps for services where I can't do otherwise. The time for "there is an app for that" is long gone, and the push for developers to artificially update their apps for whatever was presented as great Google IO innovation, or be out of the store, can only lead to outcomes like this. I imagine that the numbers on Appstore aren't much different.

neuroelectron 2y ago
Same. I have a bunch of Apple devices now and the only apps I install are vlc, kindle and brave.
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
It's also impossible to find good apps. The store has flags indicating whether an app uses in-app purchases or ads, and knows the file size of apps (which is a good proxy of how much data-collecting bloatware is inside). It doesn't let you easily see the size before installing and doesn't let you search by any of these criteria. So if you wanted to publish a high quality, free, ad-free app, you would immediately be crowded out by the apps that can spend money on ads and SEO because they're full of crap, and your potential users have no chance of finding your app. Given how easy this would be to implement, it seems obvious that this is an intentional, user-hostile choice because Google doesn't profit off these apps.
- vivzkestrel 1y ago
  Each app should be rated by a new criteria 1) Size 2) Speed 3) Design 4) Customer Support Speed 5) Average downtime 6) Functionally Satisfactory Score

kshri24 2y ago

Technology was supposed to get rid of most of bureaucracy and move the World towards automation. These FAANG companies have instead successfully integrated bureaucracy with technology and have made bureaucracy permanent. Instead of automating away bureaucracy these companies have automated away customer service.

dmix 2y ago
The lazy response to any new risk or problem is to just layer on new rules and processes. Large organizations always end up with those things defining their workplace culture (risk aversion, checkbox culture) and that worldview filters down to the decisions which impact customers.
staplers 2y ago
"Never be deceived that the rich will permit you to vote away their wealth." - Lucy Parsons
whimsicalism 2y ago
they do these things in response to governmental pressure.
SupremumLimit 2y ago
It is a serious mistake to think that technology can remove bureaucracy. Indeed, technology by its nature makes bureaucracy a lot more rigid. Bureaucracy is about homogenising processes and erasing individual differences, and software reinforces these properties because it allows even less human input or deviation from the process. (That isn't true of all software, just software that is intended to somehow deal with large numbers of people uniformly.)
- kshri24 1y ago
  When I said remove bureaucracy I meant remove bureaucracy from people's lives. Obviously it will exist behind the curtains. I agree with you that software reinforces bureaucratic properties and it should. That is what it was supposed to do. But technology failed when it comes to rectification of any deviations in bureaucratic processes. For example, assume you are submitting a form and the address is incorrect/not matching exactly what is stored in the database; software should (rightly) flag it and have a human review it and do the necessary correction. Instead we have the worst of both worlds, where the software flags the problem but there is no human in the loop anymore. Even the human is automated out. So the problem is never fixed. Instead, the customer/client who is interacting with the software is indirectly made aware of the internal bureaucratic process but has no recourse.

serial_dev 2y ago

Gee, I wonder why. Publishing on the Play Store for indie devs or hobby projects just doesn’t make any sense. You need to jump though so many hoops and doxx yourself in the process, only to make basically no money with the apps, and even if you miraculously do, risk getting kicked out of their platform without any way to contact a competent human. Even before all this, the general consensus amongst solo app devs was that “don’t waste your time with Android”, now add about a hundred hour of bureaucracy to even get started with your first app, the choice is obvious for many. I was a long time Android user and switched to iOS because the apps there are just better, I honestly think that Google of running the Android ecosystem into the ground and only the big players will want to go though this mess. As a Flutter developer, it makes me want to switch to other technologies, because if Android loses its appeal, Flutter, another Google product, offers basically nothing. On web, it scks, on iOS SwiftUI will always have an advantage, Android as discussed is in steady and fast decline, and who the hell needs Flutter desktop apps that have poor integration with the operating system…

throwaway743 2y ago
Ugh I'm so fucking fed up with the Play Store and Admob, and how they have no meaningful recourse for solving issues or providing support. It makes me feel hopeless and helpless knowing I have little options outside of relying on them (don't have any apple devices to test on or build my app) and knowing they could give two shits. Especially seeing that their contact options for Admob have been broken for years now and they refuse to fix it or provide actual help. And there seems like there's no way to get them to budge, like even through our reps. Fuck them. I hope they collapse.
shakabrah 2y ago
Amen. I write Flutter at my day job and am working toward an exit ramp every day.
- xdfgh1112 2y ago
  And here I am writing flutter as a hobby and dreaming I could do it as a day job! That sucks

mvieira38 2y ago

Good, I hope it dies off and we get to a state of decentralized app distribution just like PCs have. App stores suck, I don't need Google of all companies knowing every single one of the apps I have on my phone

noisy_boy 1y ago
What would actually happen in that case is exodus towards App Store which I'll not be happy about. For all its issues, I vastly prefer the flexibility of Android over the walled-garden and would hate to leave it.
ddingus 1y ago
It is also nice to keep packages we like for whatever reason.

leesalminen 2y ago

My app’s organization is outside the “west”. So in order to complete verification with Google I had to pay some subcontractor of Dunn&Bradstreet almost $500 to get the DUNS. Then I had to get an original certified copy of the organization’s registration from the national registry. Then have an official notarized translation to English and get all that apostilled (another $500 through a service). Also, Google support refused to tell me what set of documents they would accept. I had to figure it out myself.

kylehotchkiss 2y ago
Sounds like you just found a business - offer this to others, you could be the fourth party in the transaction!
- noisy_boy 1y ago
  Do it via an app listed on... Play Store.

zmmmmm 2y ago

Sounds like there are a range of reasons, but the bigger picture explanation is : Google no longer cares about incentivizing apps to be on the store. The mobile OS wars are over: every company and dev that wants to do anything is locked into having to provide an Android and iOS app no matter how difficult it is, so all the incentives are for Apple / Google to insulate themselves from risk now by raising the bar on devs. We need to start exercising the minimal rights / capabilities to ship alternative app stores on these platforms. Easier said than done.

aucisson_masque 2y ago
Android already has many alternative app store. I believe there is nothing currently for paid app (beside OEM store like galaxy store or Huawei) but if there is a need it's absolutely possible to do. Apple side on the other hand, good luck with that. Even in Europe they made the rules so strict the third party app store are basically dead.
SchemaLoad 2y ago
Web APIs are also more capable than ever before and can be added as icons on the home page. For an individual developer, you are probably better off just doing a web app.
xdfgh1112 2y ago
I dunno, many developers already choose to ignore android entirely because it's less profitable. Raising the bar will only encourage that. At least for me the dox your own address + onerous testing requirements make android extremely unappealing I guess I could publish on fdroid but why bother? The android platform clearly doesn't care about me.
- Keyframe 2y ago
  many developers already choose to ignore android entirely because it's less profitable source? all I can find by googling around is about the same number of apps with a bias towards playstore.

olalonde 2y ago

Maybe related? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43804937 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43804937 I don't get the new D-U-N-S number requirement. Actual scammers can easily jump through the hoops. It's the small independent devs that won't bother with the bureaucracy, especially those that do it for free.

braiamp 2y ago

The real issue here isn't what the app store sets as requirements. It's that the users can't avoid it to get the applications (or doing so it too confusing).

phendrenad2 2y ago

I miss the freewheeling days of Android apps. You'd find all kinds of apps made by solo devs as a labor of love. Later, Google largely killed those apps by severely downranking them in the play store algorithm, and made searching in the play store "we'll show you what we want to show you, the filters do nothing", but you could still install a secondary app store in CyanogenMod and find those weird and fun apps. Is there any of this left? I've heard that the secondary app stores have fallen into disrepair.

umbra07 2y ago
F-Droid is what you want. You can find all manners of apps - libre replacements for all your stock system apps, alternate launchers, games, clients for your favorite desktop apps (ex: mpv), and even a proper terminal emulator - complete with a package manager.

theflyestpilot 2y ago

wonder if PWAs will normalize under all this grip tightening.

anothereng 2y ago

Google didnt let me keep my developer account because I couldnt verify address. The only ways they accept address is with bills that are not in my name so I couldnt verify my address. It's ridiculous given that I have an android phone a gmail account and they know where I live based on location data.

KoolKat23 2y ago
That's absurd, every other industry requires proof of address to be IN your name. What are Google doing :/ malicious compliance perhaps?

jonplackett 2y ago

I’m an iOS dev coming to Android because I was lucky enough to recently make an iOS app that’s making enough money to be worth porting. The developer experience of PlayStore is SO BAD compared to the AppStore - which isn’t even that good to start with. It’s like all the software and websites are just made by people who don’t care at all if you use it or not.

tomrod 2y ago

F-Droid needs more apps!

mcv 2y ago
Are there specific apps it's missing? I don't think more is necessarily better.
flykespice 1y ago
unfortunately crappy UX experience + shaming closed-source apps with "anti-feature" labels is keeping it away from growing

ggm 2y ago

How very American that the requirement to register is to obtain a private fee for service business identification, not some kind of institutionalised public interest registry.

sib 2y ago
Wait - you mean the EU-driven requirement?
- ggm 2y ago
  Yes. It's totally bizarre that a formalised business identity is held in a commercial enterprise, not some kind of not for profit mutuality or a state enterprise. Who requires them to do it isn't the point, what Google decided is the formalism to meet EU requirements is the point. Here is a european collated list of worldwide business registries. The Australian one is a gov.au. the US one is the SEC not D&B https://ebra.be/worldwide-registers/?location=au https://ebra.be/worldwide-registers/?location=au
  - sib 1y ago
    The SEC is not a registry of all businesses in the US. The SEC concerns itself with business that sell shares to the public; this would not cover (for example) a single-member LLC that a software developer might use. In the US, businesses are chartered and registered by the states, not the Federal government. There is no Federal equivalent to the UK's Companies House.
    - ggm 1y ago
      Which in itself is quite bizarre. You are of course right about the SEC although private companies raising debt securities fall under its role.

mcv 2y ago

I don't know if it's related, but I recently started using apps from f-droid. Maybe I should have done that much earlier, but necessity forced ky hand. I just can't find good apps on the Play Store anymore. Everything is enshittified. Even simple SMS apps have ads and in-app purchases. For what!? F-droid apps are simply better these days.

nmstoker 2y ago
What do you think maintains this difference on the F-droid side, given there are presumably lower barriers to entry with F-droid?
- jlokier 1y ago
  Actually, F-Droid has quite strict requirements on the apps it will accept, and it enforces them. Low-effort spammy apps with ads and in-app purchases are unlikely to be accepted. Standard Android in-app purchases, efficient notifications, or ads which use Google services, won't be accepted at all, though FLOSS versions of those things are ok in principle. From https://f-droid.org/docs/Inclusion_Policy/ https://f-droid.org/docs/Inclusion_Policy/ : > All applications in the repository must be Free, Libre and Open Source Software (FLOSS) – for example, released under a GPL or Apache license. > Every effort is made to verify that this is actually the case, both by visual inspection of the source, and by building the application from the published source. > We cannot build apps using Google’s proprietary “Play Services”. > We cannot build apps using proprietary tracking/analytic dependencies like Crashlytics and Firebase. > We cannot build apps using proprietary ad libraries. > The source code for the application must be maintained in a publicly accessible Version Control System which we have support for > The original app author has been notified (and does not oppose the inclusion).

daedrdev 2y ago

Weren't the number of apps already down by like 60% since 2016?

wnevets 2y ago

Do people still actively care about phone apps? I avoid installing them whenever possible.

AtNightWeCode 2y ago

Google has always been hostile towards indiedevs but they have become complete garbage. They do things like removing apps because they have "banned" keywords in the naming. Apps that been around for +5 years. Or you have to comply to some new bs. Or they tried to force you to use Google pay and so on. Google play has always been totally corrupt. But it is even worse today. The amount of trash spreading through their own programs is massive and then they are banning apps that does not even claim any permissions. As always with Google, money talks. If you are a small corp you are pretty much screwed. If you are a big client Google will call you and tell you how they fixed your issues before you even knew about them. I really hate working with Google and hope they get split up and destroyed in the anti-trust case. (Yeah, I know the corp is named Alphabet)

maxoakland 2y ago

This is phrased like a bad thing, but it’s actually a good thing. I’m an iOS user and I can tell you Apple is not doing a good job keeping the App Store free of scams. I’m guessing Google is doing a much better job and this is the result

Retr0id 2y ago
Genuine question, how do you encounter the scams? I haven't "browsed" the app store for a long time, I only go to find an app if I already know it exists.
alwillis 2y ago
I’m an iOS user and I can tell you Apple is not doing a good job keeping the App Store free of scams. No App Store is going to be 100% free of scams. In my experience of having downloaded several hundred iOS apps over the years, it’s pretty difficult for most people to download a scam app unless a user is specifically trying to download free, fringe apps from developers you’ve never heard of. But if you’re interested in mainstream apps that address real issues by developers who are attempting to make excellent apps that take advantage of Apple’s technology and ecosystem, the quality of iOS apps has never been better. I just checked—the revenue of the App Store was over $100 billion dollars in FY 2024. That says to me customers are finding useful apps they’ll willing to subscribe to.
- vivzkestrel 1y ago
  but it can be made 99% free from 90% right ?
- bigyabai 1y ago
  > That says to me customers are finding useful apps they’ll willing to subscribe to. My kingdom to hear Microsoft argue that in the IE case. "Yes, we're obviating serious competition and deliberately hamstringing our competitors. But just look at how large the Internet Explorer install-base is! Clearly users are deriving value from our browser. Also it stops viruses or something."

1970-01-01 2y ago

Good riddance! Apps (in general, there are many exceptions) are a slimy way to put your idea into the world. The vast majority of apps can simply be a website with zero loss of function. If you're not doing something special with my phone hardware, I'm absolutely not downloading your app.

fracus 2y ago

I've starting using less and less apps as the years go by. No more facebook, insta, twitter, tic toc. A lot of very useful apps like a calculator, flashlight, magnifyer, all that stuff is stock.

muzani 2y ago
Unfortunately, buying basic things requires an app now. Paying off my credit card and house requires an app. Getting a "taxi" needs to be done by app. School updates for tomorrow's homework go through Telegram, telling the teachers to send my daughter down from class requires WhatsApp. Whitelisting visitors to come in requires a security management app. I have an autogate that can't be opened manually. It came with a remote, but only one, so we use an app to open the gate. My door has a fingerprint sensor that malfunctions when it's humid. So I need to open my front door with an app and because it's a free app, I have to watch an ad to open my front door.
- rocketvole 2y ago
  ...Are you serious about opening the door? What app/company makes your door?
  - muzani 2y ago
    It's this app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tongtongsuo.app https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tongtongsu... It's not the same company as the one that made the door. To be fair, the door is a one time purchase and they shouldn't have to maintain it, so it's all done with a third party app. The hardware is solid, it's just the software that's a bit dodgy. The lock can be opened with fingerprint or NFC tag, but it freezes after 3 tries. The master key is a physical key or the app. I didn't get a fingerprint door to use keys, and the keyhole is also at a weird angle from beneath the door. So the app it is. It sounds ridiculous but I need apps for everything anyway, thanks to 2FA. I can't even log in to work without an app.
- ddingus 1y ago
  These seem like poor tech choices more than "an app is required to buy basic things." When the whole "there is an app for that" mess started, I could be found saying, there is a browser for that too! You are right about one thing, and that is everyone is asking whether people have their app. This is constant. My answer has and will continue to be, "nope." And yes, I have a browser for that. The apps I find worth using are all enabling in some way, sensor data, advanced calculator, viewers and the like have real value. Wrapping transactions into apps where the sole purpose is data harvesting and blasting me ads and offers, adds ZERO net value. Products that require an app should be considered broken. Seriously. All of that pushes people, who for whatever reason choose app dependency, into scenarios like you shared with us here. That stuff us broken man. You really would benefit from a general reconsideration of your product and service selection means and methods. What is the product value when "needs your phone is off the table. Does it have value without a phone? Should it? (In almost every case, yes!) Please don't take my comment as an attack. Nothing personal here, no judgment either. You are by no means alone. M

jaimex2 2y ago

Google's loss I had useful free apps deleted. They worked, now the alternatives are all ad infested slop. I CBF jumping through their hoops, might just move them to alternative stores

everyone 2y ago

Apple have been forced by EU to allow the web and PWA's to work on iOS, so there is no longer a need to make natives apps for both Android and iOS anymore, u can just make a PWA.

mgkimsal 2y ago

Can you not just install an android app from a website? I always thought that was part of the attraction of Android - you could install without an app store requirement like ios. Actually.... I seem to remember building a couple android apps and just linking from a website but... that was... 8(!) years ago. Is that still a thing? Was it ever, or did I just misremember that?

umbra07 2y ago
Yes, but: 1. It's disabled by default. You have to dig around in your phone's settings to enable APK installations, and APK installations through the specific app you prompted the installer from. And if the developer hasn't updated the app for recent versions of Android, Google will throw up a antivirus-esque "warning this app is unsafe blah blah" prompt. 2. You can't automatically update an app if you manually installed it through an APK. There are apps that can kind of do this (automatically download APK from source website on new release, notify user). But that's clunky and not suitable unless your audience is FOSS-land. Oh, and the user still has to manually click the install button for each app they update this way. No silent updates unless you're rooted. This makes the distribution of apks through your own processes wholly unviable unless your app is mandatory for your users (I. E for work/school), or your user base is Android FOSS enthusiasts - who probably prefer that you use F-Droid (3rd party FOSS appstore) anyways
- mgkimsal 1y ago
  Thanks. I've asked people to do testing like this, and with limited people it was manageable. And the last android app I did was internal to a company with maybe 15 users. Getting people to do install/update was ... manageable, just.
- iggldiggl 1y ago
  > It's disabled by default. You have to dig around in your phone's settings to enable APK installations At least since the time that the "install apps from unknown sources" permission was migrated from a global toggle to an app-specific permission (maybe even before that?), the dialogue that pops up to tell you that installation has been blocked has a button for directly taking you to the correct settings screen for toggling the permission, so it's just two extra taps. Sure, at scale even that will confuse/scare off some users, but it's not insurmountable and nowhere near as obscure as having "to dig around in your phone's settings" – just two extra taps and you're good to go (unless your phone manufacturer has made things more complicated there, which does remain a possibility).

mastazi 1y ago

As others have noted this is basically security theater because many legitimate apps are being removed and many spammy apps are staying up. I work at a company that created some whitelabel apps for some popular brands and recently the apps have been taken down for "impersonation" despite the fact that we presented all the necessary paperwork mutliple times before (documents signed by the legal owners of the trademarks). This supposed "cleanup" operation of the Play Store is just a very sloppy attempt by Google, a company that should be able to do better given the its size and resources.

Mr_Minderbinder 1y ago

I cannot remember the last time I downloaded and installed an app from the Play Store (it must have been several years ago). Instead I have been getting apps from GitHub, F-Droid or the developer’s website.

caseyy 1y ago

I don't remember who wrote the report, but a recent games industry report made its way to my desk, and it stated that considerably more games were removed from mobile stores than added over the last few quarters. I think that could be due to some uncertainty in the market about the future of mobile gaming. Mobile AAA never caught on, and the industry tried it with CoD, Civilization, Mario, Fortnite, Resident Evil, GTA, Assassin's Creed, and others. Only Pokémon Go and Genshin were exceptions on the AAA side due to strong mechanics (Pokémon: ARG appeal, Genshin: gacha profits). Meanwhile, the small-budget side has become extremely overcrowded by trash-level asset flips, gachas, and ads with vague game elements. Many genuinely talented game developers are asking, "Does my game fit in the mobile markets?" and concluding that the answer is probably closer to no than a yes. Maybe this is just the natural life cycle of the stores. Moderation doesn't keep up with use, leading to disappointed users and abandonment. Do you remember when we used to check the App Store occasionally for new fun apps during the iPhone 4/4S era? We'd get like an accelerometer app that turns a phone into a silly beer pint, and it'd be quite clever and novel. Or we'd download pedometers, and that was quite a novel and smart tool to track exercise. All because they were promoted on the stores. That's a distant memory for me; I only go to the stores to download the things I already know I need, they have turned into package managers for me.

FMecha 1y ago
Mid-budget mobile game devs in Asia not only relies on gacha, but also sexual/parasocial appeal (with the characters), to boot.

kassner 1y ago

I’ve read through the comments here, and something most people here don’t get is the importance of App Stores for discoverability. The first thing non-developers think when you tell them “download xyz app” is to open the App/Play Store and search there. If your stuff isn’t there it just doesn’t exist. That’s specially true for 3rd-world countries (I can only speak about Brazil, but my guess India would be pretty similar), where for a long while obtaining apps was a dice roll if you’d get a malware or not. Eventually the Play Store made it safer, but also created a group memory of “stuff outside Play Store is cut-and-dry unsafe”. In the circles I have access, people would hesitate to even open your website if you tell them to, but saying “my app is on the Play Store” makes it instantly “safe” in their minds. I’m still in the process of bringing my App to the Play Store (after being on Apple’s for 3 months now), and honestly catering to Android with the new rules has been the biggest regret in my 20-year career so far. Yet, there is no alternative, because every time I tell people about my project, they always come back saying “I couldn’t find it” when the project name is literally a domain name.

-__---____-ZXyw 1y ago

Great development. F-Droid continues to be great.

leonardo41 1y ago

[flagged]