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>So the question that I want to ask you is, at what point does collective responsibility apply? There’s no such point. This is the main reason why Russia is st

>So the question that I want to ask you is, at what point does collective responsibility apply? There’s no such point. This is the main reason why Russia is still not under full trade embargo and Russian citizens can still get visas. Justice is a fundamental human right, so sanctions always target individuals after some due process and may be repealed in court.

libertine 1y ago
> There’s no such point. Well, I disagree; the people of a nation contributing to and supporting genocide are responsible in part. > This is the main reason why Russia is still not under full trade embargo and Russian citizens can still get visas. I don't think those are the main reasons: - Embargo would have a global economic impact and would have to be militarily enforced; Also, it wouldn't be enforced everywhere as Russia has borders with countries that aren't sanctioning them. - As far as I know, Russian citizens can't get Visas everywhere; several European countries have banned all sorts of visas for Russian citizens. In fact, there's a case to be made that Russians are being collectively held accountable, for example: - Sanctions; - Seizing of Russian State assets (they don't belong to Putin or the regime, these assets actually belong to Russians); - Visa bans;
- ivan_gammel 1y ago
  >Well, I disagree; the people of a nation contributing to and supporting genocide are responsible in part. Why exactly do you think human right for justice doesn’t apply here? Do you include in this group everyone, even those who were not able to or actively tried to stop it? What is their responsibility exactly? If not, how do you make the distinction? Then what country are you talking about? Russia is not committing genocide in Ukraine, so it must be Israel and Gaza? But even in that case, with dramatically higher number of civilian casualties and people having more agency in state matters how exactly do you want to hold every Israeli citizen responsible? >In fact, there's a case to be made that Russians are being collectively held accountable, for example: - Sanctions; I don’t understand this part. “To make a case” means to present arguments. You don’t present arguments for sanctions with saying “sanctions”.
  - libertine 1y ago
    > Why exactly do you think human right for justice doesn’t apply here? Do you include in this group everyone, even those who were not able to or actively tried to stop it? What is their responsibility exactly? If not, how do you make the distinction? Unfortunately, there's no way to separate accomplices from those who don't support it, but what do you expect to be done? Pretend that nothing is happening and that there's no support at all for the war and only one man, Putin, is to blame? > Then what country are you talking about? Russia is not committing genocide in Ukraine Well by the definition of genocide and the actions Russia is taking, it is genocide: - Denial of Ukraine's existence as a sovereign country and as a people (a very clear admission of genocide by Putin in his speech denying the existence of Ukraine - he just happened to fail to achieve it in full). - The destruction and stealing of cultural artifacts; - Forcibly transferring and filtering children of Ukraine to Russia; - Destruction of maternity hospitals, medical facilities, power grid, all with the goal to bring suffering and inflict on Ukrainians conditions of life; These are elements of the crime of genocide[0]. You might not like that reality, but that's what's happening. It's not about the number of civilian casualties - the Nazi Germany was committing genocide before the Final Solution. I'm not even addressing war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Just speaking of Genocide. What baffles me is that it's like you don't grasp the scale of what Russia is doing in Ukraine, where 700.000+ children were kidnapped by Russians, there are more than 10.000.000 refugees, and God only knows how many were filtered in Russia. > I don’t understand this part. “To make a case” means to present arguments. You don’t present arguments for sanctions with saying “sanctions”. The point I was making is that Sanctions are already an example of collective responsibility. I wasn't making a case for Sanctions, that's self evident by many laws, such as International Law, UN Charter, etc. [0]https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition
    - ivan_gammel 1y ago
      >Unfortunately, there's no way to separate accomplices from those who don't support it, but what do you expect to be done? First of all, there is a way. See EU sanctions. They are targeted because there was an effort put in identifying the accomplices and finding the appropriate way to sanction them precisely. Second, by even contemplating the idea of punishing the innocent by applying the principle of collective responsibility you put yourself on the same level as Russian supporters of war. They do exactly the same to justify the war. > Denial of Ukraine's existence as a sovereign country and as a people. This is factually not correct. Russia recognizes Ukrainian ethnicity and Ukrainian language (see e.g. the annexation paperwork) and currently accepts existence of Ukraine as a sovereign non-aligned state. That’s literally their proposal for peace. > The destruction and stealing of cultural artifacts; Probably war crime, but not genocide. Ukraine wasn’t particularly careful about cultural artifacts in Russia too. > Forcibly transferring and filtering children of Ukraine to Russia; That’s complicated. They did move Ukrainian children from the war zone into Russia. It doesn’t constitute genocide obviously (they received proper care), but may constitute crime in some cases. > Destruction of maternity hospitals, medical facilities, power grid War crime. Not genocide. >These are elements of the crime of genocide[0]. You missed the most important part. The definition actually starts with intent: following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such Russia does not have an intent to destroy Ukrainians as a nation or ethnicity. Without intent every war would be a genocide. E.g. Americans did bomb a hospital in Afghanistan and did kill civilians. I am aware of the scale of what’s going on there. More than you think. >700.000+ children were kidnapped by Russians This number is off by orders of magnitude. >The point I was making is that Sanctions are already an example of collective responsibility. Not exactly. They target state and certain actors. Yes, that may make life of ordinary people less comfortable, but this is not the same as when they are applied to a specific person or entity without due process.

libertine 1y ago

> There’s no such point. Well, I disagree; the people of a nation contributing to and supporting genocide are responsible in part. > This is the main reason why Russia is still not under full trade embargo and Russian citizens can still get visas. I don't think those are the main reasons: - Embargo would have a global economic impact and would have to be militarily enforced; Also, it wouldn't be enforced everywhere as Russia has borders with countries that aren't sanctioning them. - As far as I know, Russian citizens can't get Visas everywhere; several European countries have banned all sorts of visas for Russian citizens. In fact, there's a case to be made that Russians are being collectively held accountable, for example: - Sanctions; - Seizing of Russian State assets (they don't belong to Putin or the regime, these assets actually belong to Russians); - Visa bans;

ivan_gammel 1y ago
>Well, I disagree; the people of a nation contributing to and supporting genocide are responsible in part. Why exactly do you think human right for justice doesn’t apply here? Do you include in this group everyone, even those who were not able to or actively tried to stop it? What is their responsibility exactly? If not, how do you make the distinction? Then what country are you talking about? Russia is not committing genocide in Ukraine, so it must be Israel and Gaza? But even in that case, with dramatically higher number of civilian casualties and people having more agency in state matters how exactly do you want to hold every Israeli citizen responsible? >In fact, there's a case to be made that Russians are being collectively held accountable, for example: - Sanctions; I don’t understand this part. “To make a case” means to present arguments. You don’t present arguments for sanctions with saying “sanctions”.
- libertine 1y ago
  > Why exactly do you think human right for justice doesn’t apply here? Do you include in this group everyone, even those who were not able to or actively tried to stop it? What is their responsibility exactly? If not, how do you make the distinction? Unfortunately, there's no way to separate accomplices from those who don't support it, but what do you expect to be done? Pretend that nothing is happening and that there's no support at all for the war and only one man, Putin, is to blame? > Then what country are you talking about? Russia is not committing genocide in Ukraine Well by the definition of genocide and the actions Russia is taking, it is genocide: - Denial of Ukraine's existence as a sovereign country and as a people (a very clear admission of genocide by Putin in his speech denying the existence of Ukraine - he just happened to fail to achieve it in full). - The destruction and stealing of cultural artifacts; - Forcibly transferring and filtering children of Ukraine to Russia; - Destruction of maternity hospitals, medical facilities, power grid, all with the goal to bring suffering and inflict on Ukrainians conditions of life; These are elements of the crime of genocide[0]. You might not like that reality, but that's what's happening. It's not about the number of civilian casualties - the Nazi Germany was committing genocide before the Final Solution. I'm not even addressing war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Just speaking of Genocide. What baffles me is that it's like you don't grasp the scale of what Russia is doing in Ukraine, where 700.000+ children were kidnapped by Russians, there are more than 10.000.000 refugees, and God only knows how many were filtered in Russia. > I don’t understand this part. “To make a case” means to present arguments. You don’t present arguments for sanctions with saying “sanctions”. The point I was making is that Sanctions are already an example of collective responsibility. I wasn't making a case for Sanctions, that's self evident by many laws, such as International Law, UN Charter, etc. [0]https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition
  - ivan_gammel 1y ago
    >Unfortunately, there's no way to separate accomplices from those who don't support it, but what do you expect to be done? First of all, there is a way. See EU sanctions. They are targeted because there was an effort put in identifying the accomplices and finding the appropriate way to sanction them precisely. Second, by even contemplating the idea of punishing the innocent by applying the principle of collective responsibility you put yourself on the same level as Russian supporters of war. They do exactly the same to justify the war. > Denial of Ukraine's existence as a sovereign country and as a people. This is factually not correct. Russia recognizes Ukrainian ethnicity and Ukrainian language (see e.g. the annexation paperwork) and currently accepts existence of Ukraine as a sovereign non-aligned state. That’s literally their proposal for peace. > The destruction and stealing of cultural artifacts; Probably war crime, but not genocide. Ukraine wasn’t particularly careful about cultural artifacts in Russia too. > Forcibly transferring and filtering children of Ukraine to Russia; That’s complicated. They did move Ukrainian children from the war zone into Russia. It doesn’t constitute genocide obviously (they received proper care), but may constitute crime in some cases. > Destruction of maternity hospitals, medical facilities, power grid War crime. Not genocide. >These are elements of the crime of genocide[0]. You missed the most important part. The definition actually starts with intent: following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such Russia does not have an intent to destroy Ukrainians as a nation or ethnicity. Without intent every war would be a genocide. E.g. Americans did bomb a hospital in Afghanistan and did kill civilians. I am aware of the scale of what’s going on there. More than you think. >700.000+ children were kidnapped by Russians This number is off by orders of magnitude. >The point I was making is that Sanctions are already an example of collective responsibility. Not exactly. They target state and certain actors. Yes, that may make life of ordinary people less comfortable, but this is not the same as when they are applied to a specific person or entity without due process.