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Dems are the lesser of two evils. As long as we don’t have ranked choice voting, which requires a constitutional amendment, we will continue to vote in the serv

Dems are the lesser of two evils. As long as we don’t have ranked choice voting, which requires a constitutional amendment, we will continue to vote in the servants of the billionaire class. Next time around, it may be the servants of the liberal billionaires instead. The underlying reality is that wealth inequality is anti-democratic as it concentrates power in the hands of the few.

brewdad 1y ago
If a third party ever truly gained traction on the national stage, what makes you think they won't be bought by the billionaire class? Musk basically bought the government purse strings for less than $300 million. That's pocket change for the truly wealthy.
- grafmax 1y ago
  American society is in crisis and this crisis will likely continue to grow economically as well as due to larger effects on the horizon such as global warming. From a practical standpoint if we are serious about unseating the power of the billionaire class (which is highly realistic as society continues to self-destruct over the long horizon) things like ranked choice voting should serve as tactical goals in a broader struggle for democratic process in our country. But yes it would be naive to consider ranked choice voting to be enough on its own to unseat them.
  - poulsbohemian 1y ago
    RCV is a weakass attempt to move us in the direction of the Westminster system without actually just fixing the system. You want Westminster just go there and don't fuck around half-assing it with RCV.
Izkata 1y ago
Ranked choice is a bad idea if gaming the system is any possibility. Approval voting gets you all the benefits ranked choice claims to have with none of the downsides, with the bonus that it's easy to explain to people.
J_Shelby_J 1y ago
> As long as we don’t have ranked choice voting Oops https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/3040?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%22congressId%3A119+AND+billStatus%3A%5C%22Introduced%5C%22%22%7D&s=1&r=6 https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/3040...
breuleux 1y ago
> As long as we don’t have ranked choice voting ... we will continue to vote in the servants of the billionaire class. I don't think RCV would do much to change that. In order to be elected, you need to be seen, so you need a sizeable media presence. The billionaire class controls enough of the media (traditional, social and "independent") that the people will keep voting for their servants under pretty much any voting system, bar a few exceptions here and there. It's a fundamental issue of electoral democracy, not of the voting system. One potential alternative would be to switch to non-electoral democracy, e.g. drawing representatives at random rather than electing them, but that's even less likely to happen, and it may end up having different problems. At least it'd suppress all the circus around elections and all that party nonsense, so there's that.
poulsbohemian 1y ago
>Dems are the lesser of two evils. Example? I hear this constantly and yet there's one party that has spent decades trying to protect the environment, protect workers, fund schools, fund health care, provide day care, prevent gun violence, equalize economic opportunity, increase and protect civil rights -- and then there are Republicans acting to stop all of that. I cannot even begin to fathom how anyone - especially in light of the past 100 days -- can tell me with a straight face that my party is the "lesser of two evils." And as for RCV - how, please offer me an example - of how you think it makes one bit of difference in freeing us from being the "servants of the billionaire class." You want to actually do that? End citizen united and get money out of politics; and good luck with that.
- grafmax 1y ago
  Some things we can attribute to the Democrats: - Repeal of 1999 Glass-Stegall act, leading directly to the 2008 crisis - Biden’s support for fossil fuel (Willow Project) - Obama and Biden’s continued expansions of the mass surveillance state - Prosecution of whistleblowers under Obama - Fusion centers and protest surveillance - Bailing out the investment banks in 2008. Refusing to prosecute bankers. - The Libya regime change - Support for Saudi in the Yemen war leading to humanitarian crisis - Drone warfare including extrajudicial killing of American citizens - Guantanamo Bay. It’s still open. - Continued material support for the Palestinian genocide (Biden) - Sanctions on Cuba - Obama’s “pivot to Asia” to begin a Cold War with China - Support for many dangerous Latin American right-wing governments - the continued rise of wealth inequality I agree Democrats are still better than Trump. That’s why I described them as the lesser of two evils. I also think it’s rational to support Democrats and other factions against the Republicans - without losing sight of the big picture. > good luck with that The billionaire class can only see its own narrow interests and actively engenders destruction in the long run. The fossil fuel industry is going to run us into the ground with climate change. The billionaires are instituting a dictatorship that has a long term goal of war with a China (a nuclear power). The long term plan of many of these billionaires is to live on seasteads and in luxury bunkers - or maybe inhabit a dead planet. Society is undergoing a deep crisis. You speak with confidence that citizens united won’t be overturned. The fact is society is going to be overturned. It’s already being overturned. The future holds for us outcomes such as mass migration and death due to climate change, political instability, nuclear war. These are the outcomes everyone is faced with. We are collectively choosing our future - and the choice is between self-destruction under the reins of these narrow interests - or the divestment of these interests in the spirit of solidarity and democracy.

brewdad 1y ago

If a third party ever truly gained traction on the national stage, what makes you think they won't be bought by the billionaire class? Musk basically bought the government purse strings for less than $300 million. That's pocket change for the truly wealthy.

grafmax 1y ago
American society is in crisis and this crisis will likely continue to grow economically as well as due to larger effects on the horizon such as global warming. From a practical standpoint if we are serious about unseating the power of the billionaire class (which is highly realistic as society continues to self-destruct over the long horizon) things like ranked choice voting should serve as tactical goals in a broader struggle for democratic process in our country. But yes it would be naive to consider ranked choice voting to be enough on its own to unseat them.
- poulsbohemian 1y ago
  RCV is a weakass attempt to move us in the direction of the Westminster system without actually just fixing the system. You want Westminster just go there and don't fuck around half-assing it with RCV.

Izkata 1y ago

Ranked choice is a bad idea if gaming the system is any possibility. Approval voting gets you all the benefits ranked choice claims to have with none of the downsides, with the bonus that it's easy to explain to people.

J_Shelby_J 1y ago

> As long as we don’t have ranked choice voting Oops https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/3040?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%22congressId%3A119+AND+billStatus%3A%5C%22Introduced%5C%22%22%7D&s=1&r=6 https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/3040...

breuleux 1y ago

> As long as we don’t have ranked choice voting ... we will continue to vote in the servants of the billionaire class. I don't think RCV would do much to change that. In order to be elected, you need to be seen, so you need a sizeable media presence. The billionaire class controls enough of the media (traditional, social and "independent") that the people will keep voting for their servants under pretty much any voting system, bar a few exceptions here and there. It's a fundamental issue of electoral democracy, not of the voting system. One potential alternative would be to switch to non-electoral democracy, e.g. drawing representatives at random rather than electing them, but that's even less likely to happen, and it may end up having different problems. At least it'd suppress all the circus around elections and all that party nonsense, so there's that.

poulsbohemian 1y ago

>Dems are the lesser of two evils. Example? I hear this constantly and yet there's one party that has spent decades trying to protect the environment, protect workers, fund schools, fund health care, provide day care, prevent gun violence, equalize economic opportunity, increase and protect civil rights -- and then there are Republicans acting to stop all of that. I cannot even begin to fathom how anyone - especially in light of the past 100 days -- can tell me with a straight face that my party is the "lesser of two evils." And as for RCV - how, please offer me an example - of how you think it makes one bit of difference in freeing us from being the "servants of the billionaire class." You want to actually do that? End citizen united and get money out of politics; and good luck with that.

grafmax 1y ago
Some things we can attribute to the Democrats: - Repeal of 1999 Glass-Stegall act, leading directly to the 2008 crisis - Biden’s support for fossil fuel (Willow Project) - Obama and Biden’s continued expansions of the mass surveillance state - Prosecution of whistleblowers under Obama - Fusion centers and protest surveillance - Bailing out the investment banks in 2008. Refusing to prosecute bankers. - The Libya regime change - Support for Saudi in the Yemen war leading to humanitarian crisis - Drone warfare including extrajudicial killing of American citizens - Guantanamo Bay. It’s still open. - Continued material support for the Palestinian genocide (Biden) - Sanctions on Cuba - Obama’s “pivot to Asia” to begin a Cold War with China - Support for many dangerous Latin American right-wing governments - the continued rise of wealth inequality I agree Democrats are still better than Trump. That’s why I described them as the lesser of two evils. I also think it’s rational to support Democrats and other factions against the Republicans - without losing sight of the big picture. > good luck with that The billionaire class can only see its own narrow interests and actively engenders destruction in the long run. The fossil fuel industry is going to run us into the ground with climate change. The billionaires are instituting a dictatorship that has a long term goal of war with a China (a nuclear power). The long term plan of many of these billionaires is to live on seasteads and in luxury bunkers - or maybe inhabit a dead planet. Society is undergoing a deep crisis. You speak with confidence that citizens united won’t be overturned. The fact is society is going to be overturned. It’s already being overturned. The future holds for us outcomes such as mass migration and death due to climate change, political instability, nuclear war. These are the outcomes everyone is faced with. We are collectively choosing our future - and the choice is between self-destruction under the reins of these narrow interests - or the divestment of these interests in the spirit of solidarity and democracy.