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> The punished group may often have no direct association with the perpetrator other than living in the same area and can not be assumed to exercise control ove

> The punished group may often have no direct association with the perpetrator other than living in the same area and can not be assumed to exercise control over the perpetrator's actions. Here, the point that's raised is: isn't there any collective responsibility for a group of people that support and re-elect a political leader with 87% of votes, who was, and promised to continue engaging in a war of genocide? Notice that I'm being cynical here, referencing the 87% vote count. While it might be a theatrical display, the regime likes to preach about the legitimacy of Democracy (especially how Ukraine is conducting its democracy), and Russians accepted these results - so even if it's not actually 87%, it's still high. Also, let's not forget that a lot of the invading force is composed of individuals with entrepreneurial ambitions; they're contractors, not conscripts, meaning people who sign up to get well paid to go to Ukraine and kill as many Ukrainians as possible, just because they're Ukrainians. The latest estimates of +950.000 Russian casualties point that it's not just a few people willing to do this, but a lot. So the question that I want to ask you is, at what point does collective responsibility apply? Two points to clarify: - This is an honest question, because I don't know the answer to it, but I just don't think that "there should never be collective responsibility" is a good answer. - Collective responsibility =/= perpetual collective responsibility =/= collective punishment;

ivan_gammel 1y ago
>So the question that I want to ask you is, at what point does collective responsibility apply? There’s no such point. This is the main reason why Russia is still not under full trade embargo and Russian citizens can still get visas. Justice is a fundamental human right, so sanctions always target individuals after some due process and may be repealed in court.
- libertine 1y ago
  > There’s no such point. Well, I disagree; the people of a nation contributing to and supporting genocide are responsible in part. > This is the main reason why Russia is still not under full trade embargo and Russian citizens can still get visas. I don't think those are the main reasons: - Embargo would have a global economic impact and would have to be militarily enforced; Also, it wouldn't be enforced everywhere as Russia has borders with countries that aren't sanctioning them. - As far as I know, Russian citizens can't get Visas everywhere; several European countries have banned all sorts of visas for Russian citizens. In fact, there's a case to be made that Russians are being collectively held accountable, for example: - Sanctions; - Seizing of Russian State assets (they don't belong to Putin or the regime, these assets actually belong to Russians); - Visa bans;
  - ivan_gammel 1y ago
    >Well, I disagree; the people of a nation contributing to and supporting genocide are responsible in part. Why exactly do you think human right for justice doesn’t apply here? Do you include in this group everyone, even those who were not able to or actively tried to stop it? What is their responsibility exactly? If not, how do you make the distinction? Then what country are you talking about? Russia is not committing genocide in Ukraine, so it must be Israel and Gaza? But even in that case, with dramatically higher number of civilian casualties and people having more agency in state matters how exactly do you want to hold every Israeli citizen responsible? >In fact, there's a case to be made that Russians are being collectively held accountable, for example: - Sanctions; I don’t understand this part. “To make a case” means to present arguments. You don’t present arguments for sanctions with saying “sanctions”.
    - libertine 1y ago
      > Why exactly do you think human right for justice doesn’t apply here? Do you include in this group everyone, even those who were not able to or actively tried to stop it? What is their responsibility exactly? If not, how do you make the distinction? Unfortunately, there's no way to separate accomplices from those who don't support it, but what do you expect to be done? Pretend that nothing is happening and that there's no support at all for the war and only one man, Putin, is to blame? > Then what country are you talking about? Russia is not committing genocide in Ukraine Well by the definition of genocide and the actions Russia is taking, it is genocide: - Denial of Ukraine's existence as a sovereign country and as a people (a very clear admission of genocide by Putin in his speech denying the existence of Ukraine - he just happened to fail to achieve it in full). - The destruction and stealing of cultural artifacts; - Forcibly transferring and filtering children of Ukraine to Russia; - Destruction of maternity hospitals, medical facilities, power grid, all with the goal to bring suffering and inflict on Ukrainians conditions of life; These are elements of the crime of genocide[0]. You might not like that reality, but that's what's happening. It's not about the number of civilian casualties - the Nazi Germany was committing genocide before the Final Solution. I'm not even addressing war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Just speaking of Genocide. What baffles me is that it's like you don't grasp the scale of what Russia is doing in Ukraine, where 700.000+ children were kidnapped by Russians, there are more than 10.000.000 refugees, and God only knows how many were filtered in Russia. > I don’t understand this part. “To make a case” means to present arguments. You don’t present arguments for sanctions with saying “sanctions”. The point I was making is that Sanctions are already an example of collective responsibility. I wasn't making a case for Sanctions, that's self evident by many laws, such as International Law, UN Charter, etc. [0]https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition

ivan_gammel 1y ago

>So the question that I want to ask you is, at what point does collective responsibility apply? There’s no such point. This is the main reason why Russia is still not under full trade embargo and Russian citizens can still get visas. Justice is a fundamental human right, so sanctions always target individuals after some due process and may be repealed in court.

libertine 1y ago
> There’s no such point. Well, I disagree; the people of a nation contributing to and supporting genocide are responsible in part. > This is the main reason why Russia is still not under full trade embargo and Russian citizens can still get visas. I don't think those are the main reasons: - Embargo would have a global economic impact and would have to be militarily enforced; Also, it wouldn't be enforced everywhere as Russia has borders with countries that aren't sanctioning them. - As far as I know, Russian citizens can't get Visas everywhere; several European countries have banned all sorts of visas for Russian citizens. In fact, there's a case to be made that Russians are being collectively held accountable, for example: - Sanctions; - Seizing of Russian State assets (they don't belong to Putin or the regime, these assets actually belong to Russians); - Visa bans;
- ivan_gammel 1y ago
  >Well, I disagree; the people of a nation contributing to and supporting genocide are responsible in part. Why exactly do you think human right for justice doesn’t apply here? Do you include in this group everyone, even those who were not able to or actively tried to stop it? What is their responsibility exactly? If not, how do you make the distinction? Then what country are you talking about? Russia is not committing genocide in Ukraine, so it must be Israel and Gaza? But even in that case, with dramatically higher number of civilian casualties and people having more agency in state matters how exactly do you want to hold every Israeli citizen responsible? >In fact, there's a case to be made that Russians are being collectively held accountable, for example: - Sanctions; I don’t understand this part. “To make a case” means to present arguments. You don’t present arguments for sanctions with saying “sanctions”.
  - libertine 1y ago
    > Why exactly do you think human right for justice doesn’t apply here? Do you include in this group everyone, even those who were not able to or actively tried to stop it? What is their responsibility exactly? If not, how do you make the distinction? Unfortunately, there's no way to separate accomplices from those who don't support it, but what do you expect to be done? Pretend that nothing is happening and that there's no support at all for the war and only one man, Putin, is to blame? > Then what country are you talking about? Russia is not committing genocide in Ukraine Well by the definition of genocide and the actions Russia is taking, it is genocide: - Denial of Ukraine's existence as a sovereign country and as a people (a very clear admission of genocide by Putin in his speech denying the existence of Ukraine - he just happened to fail to achieve it in full). - The destruction and stealing of cultural artifacts; - Forcibly transferring and filtering children of Ukraine to Russia; - Destruction of maternity hospitals, medical facilities, power grid, all with the goal to bring suffering and inflict on Ukrainians conditions of life; These are elements of the crime of genocide[0]. You might not like that reality, but that's what's happening. It's not about the number of civilian casualties - the Nazi Germany was committing genocide before the Final Solution. I'm not even addressing war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Just speaking of Genocide. What baffles me is that it's like you don't grasp the scale of what Russia is doing in Ukraine, where 700.000+ children were kidnapped by Russians, there are more than 10.000.000 refugees, and God only knows how many were filtered in Russia. > I don’t understand this part. “To make a case” means to present arguments. You don’t present arguments for sanctions with saying “sanctions”. The point I was making is that Sanctions are already an example of collective responsibility. I wasn't making a case for Sanctions, that's self evident by many laws, such as International Law, UN Charter, etc. [0]https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition