4 ms·

> the people who created the conditions for him are responsible It's just a truism though isn't it? Everything in the past is responsible for what is the cur

> the people who created the conditions for him are responsible It's just a truism though isn't it? Everything in the past is responsible for what is the current state of things. You can say it but it has next to no meaning and is not interesting. But using plain English and the plain meanings of words: Trump is responsible. You can blame Biden for not dropping out soon enough or whatever, but ultimately: what is happening now is on Trump. What would perhaps be interesting is to discuss this objective failure of the American system. Far from the "greatest democracy in the world", the constitution is clearly quite, quite a shit one if it allows this to happen.

9rx 1y ago
It is not just about the past. A king is only as powerful as his subjects are loyal. Trump continues to hold sway because people have remained trusting of him and are willing to go along with him. They don't have to, but they choose to.
- twixfel 1y ago
  Right, and a constitution that allows that to even happen has also failed. The American system was supposed to be somewhat elitist and prevent wild populism. So it didn't do that. It failed. Perhaps related to the overly permissive definition of speech in the US and subsequent extreme partisanship. Or perhaps presidential systems actually are quite shit in comparison to parliamentary ones. Anyway, obviously the country is very, very sick at the moment.
  - actionfromafar 1y ago
    First past the post voting is one critical root cause. It prevents coalition building and compromise. I think that's a much bigger smoking gun than presidential vs parliamentary.
    - anonymars 1y ago
      I think this is too simple. The right wing was on the rise in most of the rest of the developed world too, until Trump scared everyone straight. What factors led people to think this brand of politics is a good way forward? Simple media? Social media? Propaganda? Foreign propaganda? Personally I think it's a mix, but inequality is a big factor. Quoting Roosevelt: "But I venture the challenging statement that if American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, then Fascism and Communism, aided, unconsciously perhaps, by old-line Tory Republicanism, will grow in strength in our land."
      - 9rx 1y ago
        > Simple media? Social media? Propaganda? Foreign propaganda? Fashion.
palmotea 1y ago
> But using plain English and the plain meanings of words: Trump is responsible. Not exactly. Being so blunt and simplistic is politics, pure and simple. The D's don't like the R's, so their analysis always stops once they can blame an R (and vice-versa). I think it's a much more interesting and fruitful question to ask "Who is responsible for Trump," rather than "What is Trump responsible for." IMHO, the Trump phenomenon is in large part the expression of rejection of neoliberalism, which the pre-Trump political structure made unexpressable. The result is a seriously flawed man gaining power, and causing way more damage than was necessary. > What would perhaps be interesting is to discuss this objective failure of the American system. Far from the "greatest democracy in the world", the constitution is clearly quite, quite a shit one if it allows this to happen. That's closer to what I'm getting at. However, what exactly is "this," though? Does it include deviation from a Wall Street-friendly stasis? Neoliberalism 'till death do us part?
- twixfel 1y ago
  I don’t know I think blaming trump for the things trump is doing is pretty straight forwards and the opposite of playing politics. >That's closer to what I'm getting at. However, what exactly is "this," though? Does it include deviation from a Wall Street-friendly stasis? Neoliberalism 'till death do us part? Neoliberalism is much newer than the constitution and the country. Have a sense of scope when talking about the history of your country, it's new, but it's not that new. The country is completely fucked—that we can all agree on. It's imploding and its position in the world is frankly becoming increasingly pathetic. America's friends pity it at best and detest it for its betrayal of Western civilisation at worst. America's enemies are laughing. If there are people to blame, then I'm afraid it's the American people. Americans are not worthy of the country that they have inherited. Americans are an undignified people, that's a bit part of the problem.
  - palmotea 1y ago
    > I don’t know I think blaming trump for the things trump is doing is pretty straight forwards and the opposite of playing politics. The playing politics part is (among other things) selectively focusing only "on the things Trump is doing." Trump isn't responsible for creating the conditions that allowed him to get elected. A lot of the people who are really interested in focusing only "on the things Trump is doing" are the ones responsible for those conditions in the first place. I mean, how bad do you have to be that people would rather vote for a sociopathic clown than you, when given the choice? But you know, thinking about that will make you uncomfortable, lets avoid it and focus on the clown! Here's a thought: if you don't want to be ruled by a Trump, figure out how to avoid creating the conditions where someone like him could win. Strongly advocating for reasonable policies to create those conditions would also be better politics against Trump, right now than the incessant outrage about how terrible Trump is.

9rx 1y ago

It is not just about the past. A king is only as powerful as his subjects are loyal. Trump continues to hold sway because people have remained trusting of him and are willing to go along with him. They don't have to, but they choose to.

twixfel 1y ago
Right, and a constitution that allows that to even happen has also failed. The American system was supposed to be somewhat elitist and prevent wild populism. So it didn't do that. It failed. Perhaps related to the overly permissive definition of speech in the US and subsequent extreme partisanship. Or perhaps presidential systems actually are quite shit in comparison to parliamentary ones. Anyway, obviously the country is very, very sick at the moment.
- actionfromafar 1y ago
  First past the post voting is one critical root cause. It prevents coalition building and compromise. I think that's a much bigger smoking gun than presidential vs parliamentary.
  - anonymars 1y ago
    I think this is too simple. The right wing was on the rise in most of the rest of the developed world too, until Trump scared everyone straight. What factors led people to think this brand of politics is a good way forward? Simple media? Social media? Propaganda? Foreign propaganda? Personally I think it's a mix, but inequality is a big factor. Quoting Roosevelt: "But I venture the challenging statement that if American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, then Fascism and Communism, aided, unconsciously perhaps, by old-line Tory Republicanism, will grow in strength in our land."
    - 9rx 1y ago
      > Simple media? Social media? Propaganda? Foreign propaganda? Fashion.

palmotea 1y ago

> But using plain English and the plain meanings of words: Trump is responsible. Not exactly. Being so blunt and simplistic is politics, pure and simple. The D's don't like the R's, so their analysis always stops once they can blame an R (and vice-versa). I think it's a much more interesting and fruitful question to ask "Who is responsible for Trump," rather than "What is Trump responsible for." IMHO, the Trump phenomenon is in large part the expression of rejection of neoliberalism, which the pre-Trump political structure made unexpressable. The result is a seriously flawed man gaining power, and causing way more damage than was necessary. > What would perhaps be interesting is to discuss this objective failure of the American system. Far from the "greatest democracy in the world", the constitution is clearly quite, quite a shit one if it allows this to happen. That's closer to what I'm getting at. However, what exactly is "this," though? Does it include deviation from a Wall Street-friendly stasis? Neoliberalism 'till death do us part?

twixfel 1y ago
I don’t know I think blaming trump for the things trump is doing is pretty straight forwards and the opposite of playing politics. >That's closer to what I'm getting at. However, what exactly is "this," though? Does it include deviation from a Wall Street-friendly stasis? Neoliberalism 'till death do us part? Neoliberalism is much newer than the constitution and the country. Have a sense of scope when talking about the history of your country, it's new, but it's not that new. The country is completely fucked—that we can all agree on. It's imploding and its position in the world is frankly becoming increasingly pathetic. America's friends pity it at best and detest it for its betrayal of Western civilisation at worst. America's enemies are laughing. If there are people to blame, then I'm afraid it's the American people. Americans are not worthy of the country that they have inherited. Americans are an undignified people, that's a bit part of the problem.
- palmotea 1y ago
  > I don’t know I think blaming trump for the things trump is doing is pretty straight forwards and the opposite of playing politics. The playing politics part is (among other things) selectively focusing only "on the things Trump is doing." Trump isn't responsible for creating the conditions that allowed him to get elected. A lot of the people who are really interested in focusing only "on the things Trump is doing" are the ones responsible for those conditions in the first place. I mean, how bad do you have to be that people would rather vote for a sociopathic clown than you, when given the choice? But you know, thinking about that will make you uncomfortable, lets avoid it and focus on the clown! Here's a thought: if you don't want to be ruled by a Trump, figure out how to avoid creating the conditions where someone like him could win. Strongly advocating for reasonable policies to create those conditions would also be better politics against Trump, right now than the incessant outrage about how terrible Trump is.