7 ms·

the goal of school and what it is used for are different thing. School is childcare

by brainzap 1y ago

constantcrying 1y ago
[flagged]
- fmbb 1y ago
  Have you met a 16-year old?
  - lupusreal 1y ago
    Their fingers are too big to fit in electrical sockets, they should be fine.
    - rad_gruchalski 1y ago
      No worries. A tongue will always fit. Especially after some alcohol.
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    They are old enough to drive certain vehicles and old enough to buy alcohol. If we trust them with that surely we can let them do things during the day without constant adult supervision.
    - graemep 1y ago
      > They are old enough to drive certain vehicles and old enough to buy alcohol Hopefully not at the same time.
      - Meneth 1y ago
        They would drive to and from the store. Drinking what they bought is a different matter.
        graemep 1y ago
        It was meant to be a joke.
    - doublerabbit 1y ago
      Depends on what. I can't even trust the 40 year developers in my team at work. "Hacky if foreach loop will fix later" Trust is a privilege that must be earned not given. Prove to me you're trustworthy and I'll give you trust. One untrustworthy 16 year old can cause hell chaos in a group of trustworthy teenagers. I've seen it when I was a youth worker.
      - closewith 1y ago
        Trust is by far most often given and earned (or lost) post facto. In fact, that's an essential characteristic of a society. > Depends on what. I can't even trust the 40 year developers in my team at work. "Hacky if foreach loop will fix later" Whenever people make statements like this, I always wonder what their peers think of them. This dismissive attitude is so off-putting.
        xnorswap 1y ago
        People who make statements like that are the kind of people you dread will pick up your pull request. You just know you're going to go from maybe spending an hour cleaning up some suggestions to a 3-day philosophical battle to get them to a point where they deign to accept your PR.
        doublerabbit 1y ago
        Not at all. If the code is decent and shows effort I have no problem. If it's sloppy it shite code. I really don't have time to care about what my peers think of me. It's work. I don't want to communicate with them outside work. Work is just another mind space that stays at work. I am strict when it comes to code, I expect the same. I want working maintainable code to enable me to do my job. If people dread submitting a PR because they can't write code with effort, good. I like my ships built strong not weak. If they fix their problem, good. Trust given, more than happy to salute however time and time they've proven to me they don't. These developers have proven to me they won't. These are developers who are those who do not fix the issuing code and will just move on to the next problem hacking it to make it work. If you've never worked with such, then lucky. If this sting for you, time to put more effort in to your work.
    - _heimdall 1y ago
      The legal drinking age in Finland is 18 or 20, depending on the ABV. Where us the drinking age 16?
      - messe 1y ago
        In Denmark anything less that 16.5% can be purchased by 16 year olds.
        SwiftyBug 1y ago
        This is crazy. 16.5 is stronger than regular wine.
        potato3732842 1y ago
        That's exactly the point. It's a middle ground ABV where there aren't a ton of products and below which are mostly fermented beverages and above which is distilled liquor.
      - constantcrying 1y ago
        I was talking about Germany.
      - jonasdegendt 1y ago
        Belgium as well.
      - smoe 1y ago
        In Switzerland, it is 16 for beer and wine, and 18 for spirits (or drinks that contain spirits, like "alcopops", even if they have a low ABV). I think Austria and Germany are the same.
      - lupusreal 1y ago
        Most US states, last I checked. Note: drinking age, not age to buy alcohol. Usually there's some rule about parental consent or only at home.
    - tokioyoyo 1y ago
      Do you remember yourself at the age of 16?
      - constantcrying 1y ago
        Sure.
  - closewith 1y ago
    In a very real way, adolescents rise to the responsibilities given to them. Usually teenagers that need modulating is a reflection on their upbringing rather than any innate flaw.
  - CalRobert 1y ago
    Yes, they can be fully functioning young adults if not raised terribly
    - Ekaros 1y ago
      And what percentage of entire population of them is not raised terribly?
- noworld 1y ago
  Because of child labor laws.
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    In which country are 16 year olds not allowed to work?
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - Y-bar 1y ago
      In my nation 16-year olds may work outside of school hours (school is mandatory until they are 18 years old). There are other hard limits on which types of jobs and the time of day they may work. Work shall never interfere with school.
      - constantcrying 1y ago
        In Germany you can leave school at 16 and work full-time.
        das_keyboard 1y ago
        That is not true for most states in Germany. After 10 years of mandatory school most states have what is called "Berufsschulpflicht" until you are at least 18 years old. That means you have to learn a job, which is not the same as working full-time and still considered education.
        constantcrying 1y ago
        16 year olds in Germany are employed and they can work 40 hours a week. Claiming that 16 year olds "can not work because they have mandatory school" is false.
      - lolinder 1y ago
- tejohnso 1y ago
  In my experience and observation, as the age and school level increases, there's more actual learning going on. By the time you're 16, I'd say a significant amount of school time is decently geared toward learning, and you're old enough to supplement that yourself during spares or downtime if you want to. At younger ages though, it definitely seems like more of a daycare service than a learning focused environment. The free daycare is important, but I do feel bad for the kids who are stuck in that absurd environment. Someone can come up to you and stab you with a pencil for no reason and that's just par for the course.
- fsloth 1y ago
  Child care? This is legally required school attendance for under 18 year olds. Most school days are way shorter than that. The curriculum seems to keep my kids intellectually engaged. Commenting as a finn.
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - fsloth 1y ago
      Sure, different countries have different norms. In Finland 16 olds are not allowed to drink and access to alcohol is state controlled. IMHO learning foreign languages, math, history, biology and physics is not child care. This is in preparation to getting access to upper secondary education (vocational or academic). Usually you start this at 16. This is not a simple question but one part of the answer is that students are a) ready for upper secondary education b) their grades can be used to grade access to schools with top upper secondary schools being extremely hard to get into. Ofc if you ask “why would a society do this” I guess the reason is that an educated population is expected to be more productive AND because the law requires schooling up to 18 it also implies all students must have access to free schools with close to zero material costs. So it’s intended also to level the playing field for all social classes. Is this worse or better than germanys system is impossible for me to tell.
markvdb 1y ago
This is about Finland. They have a rather well-reputed school system that delivers in both areas.
- cudder 1y ago
  At least used to. Last few years Finland's PISA scores as measured by the OECD have plummeted and now they are just a bit above average but nowhere near what they used to be.
  - js8 1y ago
    What do you think are the factors that caused this fall?
    - thaanpaa 1y ago
      Voting for right-wing politicians repeatedly. You know, tax cuts for the wealthy, education cuts in fear of national debt, and all that jazz.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - veeti 1y ago
      Some common themes in the conversation are neoliberal cost cutting, failed attempts at inclusion and immigration. * Finland is a gerontocracy and recent governments have made significant cuts to education and the general wellbeing of younger generations. * Modern schools are increasingly built like open plan offices with dozens of students crammed into "learning spaces" instead of traditional classrooms. This reduces building costs and is also sold as a trendy new innovation in pedagogy. * Special needs and gifted students are no longer put into special classrooms where they can receive the extra attention and care they need. Instead, they are put in with the other kids to the benefit of no one except the state budget, but at least it feels more "inclusive" to some research professor in their ivory tower. * The amount of immigration and share of children speaking Finnish as a second language is rising and they are statistically more likely to perform worse (https://yle.fi/a/74-20018233 https://yle.fi/a/74-20018233, https://yle.fi/a/74-20016772 https://yle.fi/a/74-20016772).
os2warpman 1y ago
The first several years of school is indeed childcare. Childcare mixed with education. I am confused by people who use this as a derogative. I learned drafting, how to type, welding, library science, color theory, woodworking, BASIC programming, the internal anatomy of a piglet, resume writing, how to play the cello, calculus, and how to sing the names of all 50 US states in alphabetical order in middle school and high school. That is not childcare. edit: forgot darkroom photography, yearbook editing, extemporaneous speaking, and Robert's Rules of Order.
- FollowingTheDao 1y ago
  > The first several years of school is indeed childcare. Childcare mixed with education. Yes. Former teacher here to tell you I cared about the children. :) But seriously, in the United States teachers are considered "In loco parentis" which "refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis

the goal of school and what it is used for are different thing. School is childcare

constantcrying 1y ago

[flagged]

fmbb 1y ago
Have you met a 16-year old?
- lupusreal 1y ago
  Their fingers are too big to fit in electrical sockets, they should be fine.
  - rad_gruchalski 1y ago
    No worries. A tongue will always fit. Especially after some alcohol.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  They are old enough to drive certain vehicles and old enough to buy alcohol. If we trust them with that surely we can let them do things during the day without constant adult supervision.
  - graemep 1y ago
    > They are old enough to drive certain vehicles and old enough to buy alcohol Hopefully not at the same time.
    - Meneth 1y ago
      They would drive to and from the store. Drinking what they bought is a different matter.
      - graemep 1y ago
        It was meant to be a joke.
  - doublerabbit 1y ago
    Depends on what. I can't even trust the 40 year developers in my team at work. "Hacky if foreach loop will fix later" Trust is a privilege that must be earned not given. Prove to me you're trustworthy and I'll give you trust. One untrustworthy 16 year old can cause hell chaos in a group of trustworthy teenagers. I've seen it when I was a youth worker.
    - closewith 1y ago
      Trust is by far most often given and earned (or lost) post facto. In fact, that's an essential characteristic of a society. > Depends on what. I can't even trust the 40 year developers in my team at work. "Hacky if foreach loop will fix later" Whenever people make statements like this, I always wonder what their peers think of them. This dismissive attitude is so off-putting.
      - xnorswap 1y ago
        People who make statements like that are the kind of people you dread will pick up your pull request. You just know you're going to go from maybe spending an hour cleaning up some suggestions to a 3-day philosophical battle to get them to a point where they deign to accept your PR.
        doublerabbit 1y ago
        Not at all. If the code is decent and shows effort I have no problem. If it's sloppy it shite code. I really don't have time to care about what my peers think of me. It's work. I don't want to communicate with them outside work. Work is just another mind space that stays at work. I am strict when it comes to code, I expect the same. I want working maintainable code to enable me to do my job. If people dread submitting a PR because they can't write code with effort, good. I like my ships built strong not weak. If they fix their problem, good. Trust given, more than happy to salute however time and time they've proven to me they don't. These developers have proven to me they won't. These are developers who are those who do not fix the issuing code and will just move on to the next problem hacking it to make it work. If you've never worked with such, then lucky. If this sting for you, time to put more effort in to your work.
  - _heimdall 1y ago
    The legal drinking age in Finland is 18 or 20, depending on the ABV. Where us the drinking age 16?
    - messe 1y ago
      In Denmark anything less that 16.5% can be purchased by 16 year olds.
      - SwiftyBug 1y ago
        This is crazy. 16.5 is stronger than regular wine.
        potato3732842 1y ago
        That's exactly the point. It's a middle ground ABV where there aren't a ton of products and below which are mostly fermented beverages and above which is distilled liquor.
    - constantcrying 1y ago
      I was talking about Germany.
    - jonasdegendt 1y ago
      Belgium as well.
    - smoe 1y ago
      In Switzerland, it is 16 for beer and wine, and 18 for spirits (or drinks that contain spirits, like "alcopops", even if they have a low ABV). I think Austria and Germany are the same.
    - lupusreal 1y ago
      Most US states, last I checked. Note: drinking age, not age to buy alcohol. Usually there's some rule about parental consent or only at home.
  - tokioyoyo 1y ago
    Do you remember yourself at the age of 16?
    - constantcrying 1y ago
      Sure.
- closewith 1y ago
  In a very real way, adolescents rise to the responsibilities given to them. Usually teenagers that need modulating is a reflection on their upbringing rather than any innate flaw.
- CalRobert 1y ago
  Yes, they can be fully functioning young adults if not raised terribly
  - Ekaros 1y ago
    And what percentage of entire population of them is not raised terribly?
noworld 1y ago
Because of child labor laws.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  In which country are 16 year olds not allowed to work?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - Y-bar 1y ago
    In my nation 16-year olds may work outside of school hours (school is mandatory until they are 18 years old). There are other hard limits on which types of jobs and the time of day they may work. Work shall never interfere with school.
    - constantcrying 1y ago
      In Germany you can leave school at 16 and work full-time.
      - das_keyboard 1y ago
        That is not true for most states in Germany. After 10 years of mandatory school most states have what is called "Berufsschulpflicht" until you are at least 18 years old. That means you have to learn a job, which is not the same as working full-time and still considered education.
        constantcrying 1y ago
        16 year olds in Germany are employed and they can work 40 hours a week. Claiming that 16 year olds "can not work because they have mandatory school" is false.
    - lolinder 1y ago
tejohnso 1y ago
In my experience and observation, as the age and school level increases, there's more actual learning going on. By the time you're 16, I'd say a significant amount of school time is decently geared toward learning, and you're old enough to supplement that yourself during spares or downtime if you want to. At younger ages though, it definitely seems like more of a daycare service than a learning focused environment. The free daycare is important, but I do feel bad for the kids who are stuck in that absurd environment. Someone can come up to you and stab you with a pencil for no reason and that's just par for the course.
fsloth 1y ago
Child care? This is legally required school attendance for under 18 year olds. Most school days are way shorter than that. The curriculum seems to keep my kids intellectually engaged. Commenting as a finn.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - fsloth 1y ago
    Sure, different countries have different norms. In Finland 16 olds are not allowed to drink and access to alcohol is state controlled. IMHO learning foreign languages, math, history, biology and physics is not child care. This is in preparation to getting access to upper secondary education (vocational or academic). Usually you start this at 16. This is not a simple question but one part of the answer is that students are a) ready for upper secondary education b) their grades can be used to grade access to schools with top upper secondary schools being extremely hard to get into. Ofc if you ask “why would a society do this” I guess the reason is that an educated population is expected to be more productive AND because the law requires schooling up to 18 it also implies all students must have access to free schools with close to zero material costs. So it’s intended also to level the playing field for all social classes. Is this worse or better than germanys system is impossible for me to tell.

markvdb 1y ago

This is about Finland. They have a rather well-reputed school system that delivers in both areas.

cudder 1y ago
At least used to. Last few years Finland's PISA scores as measured by the OECD have plummeted and now they are just a bit above average but nowhere near what they used to be.
- js8 1y ago
  What do you think are the factors that caused this fall?
  - thaanpaa 1y ago
    Voting for right-wing politicians repeatedly. You know, tax cuts for the wealthy, education cuts in fear of national debt, and all that jazz.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - veeti 1y ago
    Some common themes in the conversation are neoliberal cost cutting, failed attempts at inclusion and immigration. * Finland is a gerontocracy and recent governments have made significant cuts to education and the general wellbeing of younger generations. * Modern schools are increasingly built like open plan offices with dozens of students crammed into "learning spaces" instead of traditional classrooms. This reduces building costs and is also sold as a trendy new innovation in pedagogy. * Special needs and gifted students are no longer put into special classrooms where they can receive the extra attention and care they need. Instead, they are put in with the other kids to the benefit of no one except the state budget, but at least it feels more "inclusive" to some research professor in their ivory tower. * The amount of immigration and share of children speaking Finnish as a second language is rising and they are statistically more likely to perform worse (https://yle.fi/a/74-20018233 https://yle.fi/a/74-20018233, https://yle.fi/a/74-20016772 https://yle.fi/a/74-20016772).

os2warpman 1y ago

The first several years of school is indeed childcare. Childcare mixed with education. I am confused by people who use this as a derogative. I learned drafting, how to type, welding, library science, color theory, woodworking, BASIC programming, the internal anatomy of a piglet, resume writing, how to play the cello, calculus, and how to sing the names of all 50 US states in alphabetical order in middle school and high school. That is not childcare. edit: forgot darkroom photography, yearbook editing, extemporaneous speaking, and Robert's Rules of Order.

FollowingTheDao 1y ago
> The first several years of school is indeed childcare. Childcare mixed with education. Yes. Former teacher here to tell you I cared about the children. :) But seriously, in the United States teachers are considered "In loco parentis" which "refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis