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Sorry but I will always want to drive myself. I have a great car that I love and because of the way the world has changed since it was made (20 years or so) I d

Sorry but I will always want to drive myself. I have a great car that I love and because of the way the world has changed since it was made (20 years or so) I don't think they'll ever make anything quite like this again. I intend to keep it forever. Plus driving is way too fun. Driving != commuting... go find yourself a nice deserted mountain road, roll down the windows, and feel the breeze.

jonknee 14y ago
Read the part about higher insurance rates for people who want to risk driving themselves.
- bengl3rt 14y ago
  I don't follow... are the economies of scale that allow insurance companies to operate in the current market graduated such that if they only had to insure a fraction of the current driving population, they couldn't do it at the same cost per person? Granted they will fight the shrinking of that market tooth and nail (and probably lobby to mandate insurance for all cars regardless of who or what is driving them), but it's not as though their cost structure stays the same once most of the population stops having accidents.
  - kkowalczyk 14y ago
    There is non-insignificant fixed cost to insurance business: people, advertising cost immediately come to mind. But I see another scenario: traditional insurance business will not be willing to insure self-driving cars rationally (i.e. at much lower cost due to much lower incident rates) and robo-taxi companies will self-insure. That will deprive traditional insurers from a lot of revenue and since they are publicly traded companies, they won't just accept that and scale down to match smaller market. Instead, they'll try to prop up revenues in short term by rising prices which will make self-driving cars even more attractive to more people, fueling their own decline.
    - bengl3rt 14y ago
      Are taxi companies currently allowed to self-insure? I would bet current insurance companies are more likely to fight any legal distinction between traditional and self-driving cars as it would require a change to their (lucrative) business model.
      - kkowalczyk 14y ago
        Sure, but how hard would it be for Google to create a wholly-owned subsidiary that is an insurance company, which only happens to insure Google? Patent troll Intellectual Ventures reportedly created hundreds of shell companies. Amazon creates tens of subsidiaries (e.g. Kindle is technically created by lab126, owned by Amazon but a separate company) etc. Whatever the legal roadblocks insurance companies might try to throw, I don't see how they can stop new insurance companies from being created and that's a simple loophole against any anti-self-insurance laws.
    - brc 14y ago
      Insurance companies make money by investing the premium in investments. A correctly balanced insurance book will match premiums + claims over an expected time period. The idea is to invest the premium and make money off the investments. This is why Warren Buffet buys insurance companies, because he is a good investor. If an insurance company is paying out more in claims than they are taking in in premium, that is when they will increase the premiums. If they are taking in more premium than they are paying in claims, they will generally identify areas where this is the case, and lower premiums to attract more customers. There is a lot of ignorance about insurance companies on this thread. There is also a lot of ignorance that self-driving cars will require no insurance. Not all of the cost of insurance goes to insuring the driver hitting something. There are fire, theft and third party property + injury components. None of these will be removed, though some may be reduced over time in line with claims being lower. Most of the extra cost of insurance in a large city has to do with the theft component (especially if not garaged). People who live in rural areas pay much less insurance than those in city areas, principally due to decreased theft rates. Autonomous cars will be stolen just like regular cars.
philwelch 14y ago
As long as your choices don't have any externalities, more power to you. People romanticize the days of riding horseback, too, but they don't romanticize the fact that a hundred years ago, every city street was covered in horse shit. I imagine we'll still have recreational tracks and courses for driving, but "the joy of driving" doesn't justify the megadeaths caused by automobile accidents.
kkowalczyk 14y ago
He addressed this point: you'll be able to drive yourself but it'll cost you much more than giving the control to the car (due to cost of the insurance) and much more than today (insurance spreads risks and in order to work, needs a lot of buyers, in this case drivers; if most people switch from current "person driver", expensive insurance to much cheaper "auto-driver" insurance, the "person driver" insurance will become more expensive because there will be no benefits of scale). Ultimately, it doesn't matter what you will do, but what majority of people will do and his article is about those big-picture changes. Cars replaced horses as mode of transportation, with many consequences to society. Very rich people can still ride horses as a hobby, but that doesn't nullify the magnitude of changes brought by replacing horses by cars.
- shardling 14y ago
  In the long run, hopefully person driver insurance won't be too much more expensive, simply because they'll be less accidents.
- pcurve 14y ago
  The horse analogy is brilliant.
lftl 14y ago
I've only been able to sympathize with what you're saying a very few times. Probably because I've always driven cars that I only view as utilitarian. The interesting part to me is that the pervasiveness of this general sentiment in America is the reason I think self-driving cars will win out in the near-to-medium term over other options that are probably more efficient and cost effective. America is married to the car, and that's what makes the self-driving car the most likely to succeed new form of transport in my opinion.
brc 14y ago
I enjoy driving as well. But not all driving is fun. You'll always be able to drive. But I would guess most 'fun' driving cars will be a hobby, like a boat or a horse. Not something you use every day. But a change like that is 20+ years away.
Xcelerate 14y ago
You would continue to drive yourself despite the fact that, statistically, automated cars could save thousands of lives by reducing accidents?
sodafountan 14y ago
And your part of what will be known 50 years from now as an "old generation". When kids grow up with atomized cars (their parents will add the feature when their kids start driving out of fear, texting, friends, drinking, you fucking name it) they'll become accustomed to the experience and adopt it in droves. Which leaves me with one question for you: do people still drive the Ford Model T on the road? My point should be obvious. Time changes things drastically. Either adopt the future or become obsolete. I can't stand people who can't stand change. How does it feel to be considered old?
- bengl3rt 14y ago
  "Do people still drive the Ford Model T" The ones that love it do. They even restore them and have meets where hundreds of them get together in the same place. My car has a strong enthusiast community around it now and I hope that will continue long into the future.

jonknee 14y ago

Read the part about higher insurance rates for people who want to risk driving themselves.

bengl3rt 14y ago
I don't follow... are the economies of scale that allow insurance companies to operate in the current market graduated such that if they only had to insure a fraction of the current driving population, they couldn't do it at the same cost per person? Granted they will fight the shrinking of that market tooth and nail (and probably lobby to mandate insurance for all cars regardless of who or what is driving them), but it's not as though their cost structure stays the same once most of the population stops having accidents.
- kkowalczyk 14y ago
  There is non-insignificant fixed cost to insurance business: people, advertising cost immediately come to mind. But I see another scenario: traditional insurance business will not be willing to insure self-driving cars rationally (i.e. at much lower cost due to much lower incident rates) and robo-taxi companies will self-insure. That will deprive traditional insurers from a lot of revenue and since they are publicly traded companies, they won't just accept that and scale down to match smaller market. Instead, they'll try to prop up revenues in short term by rising prices which will make self-driving cars even more attractive to more people, fueling their own decline.
  - bengl3rt 14y ago
    Are taxi companies currently allowed to self-insure? I would bet current insurance companies are more likely to fight any legal distinction between traditional and self-driving cars as it would require a change to their (lucrative) business model.
    - kkowalczyk 14y ago
      Sure, but how hard would it be for Google to create a wholly-owned subsidiary that is an insurance company, which only happens to insure Google? Patent troll Intellectual Ventures reportedly created hundreds of shell companies. Amazon creates tens of subsidiaries (e.g. Kindle is technically created by lab126, owned by Amazon but a separate company) etc. Whatever the legal roadblocks insurance companies might try to throw, I don't see how they can stop new insurance companies from being created and that's a simple loophole against any anti-self-insurance laws.
  - brc 14y ago
    Insurance companies make money by investing the premium in investments. A correctly balanced insurance book will match premiums + claims over an expected time period. The idea is to invest the premium and make money off the investments. This is why Warren Buffet buys insurance companies, because he is a good investor. If an insurance company is paying out more in claims than they are taking in in premium, that is when they will increase the premiums. If they are taking in more premium than they are paying in claims, they will generally identify areas where this is the case, and lower premiums to attract more customers. There is a lot of ignorance about insurance companies on this thread. There is also a lot of ignorance that self-driving cars will require no insurance. Not all of the cost of insurance goes to insuring the driver hitting something. There are fire, theft and third party property + injury components. None of these will be removed, though some may be reduced over time in line with claims being lower. Most of the extra cost of insurance in a large city has to do with the theft component (especially if not garaged). People who live in rural areas pay much less insurance than those in city areas, principally due to decreased theft rates. Autonomous cars will be stolen just like regular cars.

philwelch 14y ago

As long as your choices don't have any externalities, more power to you. People romanticize the days of riding horseback, too, but they don't romanticize the fact that a hundred years ago, every city street was covered in horse shit. I imagine we'll still have recreational tracks and courses for driving, but "the joy of driving" doesn't justify the megadeaths caused by automobile accidents.

kkowalczyk 14y ago

He addressed this point: you'll be able to drive yourself but it'll cost you much more than giving the control to the car (due to cost of the insurance) and much more than today (insurance spreads risks and in order to work, needs a lot of buyers, in this case drivers; if most people switch from current "person driver", expensive insurance to much cheaper "auto-driver" insurance, the "person driver" insurance will become more expensive because there will be no benefits of scale). Ultimately, it doesn't matter what you will do, but what majority of people will do and his article is about those big-picture changes. Cars replaced horses as mode of transportation, with many consequences to society. Very rich people can still ride horses as a hobby, but that doesn't nullify the magnitude of changes brought by replacing horses by cars.

shardling 14y ago
In the long run, hopefully person driver insurance won't be too much more expensive, simply because they'll be less accidents.
pcurve 14y ago
The horse analogy is brilliant.

lftl 14y ago

I've only been able to sympathize with what you're saying a very few times. Probably because I've always driven cars that I only view as utilitarian. The interesting part to me is that the pervasiveness of this general sentiment in America is the reason I think self-driving cars will win out in the near-to-medium term over other options that are probably more efficient and cost effective. America is married to the car, and that's what makes the self-driving car the most likely to succeed new form of transport in my opinion.

brc 14y ago

I enjoy driving as well. But not all driving is fun. You'll always be able to drive. But I would guess most 'fun' driving cars will be a hobby, like a boat or a horse. Not something you use every day. But a change like that is 20+ years away.

Xcelerate 14y ago

You would continue to drive yourself despite the fact that, statistically, automated cars could save thousands of lives by reducing accidents?

sodafountan 14y ago

And your part of what will be known 50 years from now as an "old generation". When kids grow up with atomized cars (their parents will add the feature when their kids start driving out of fear, texting, friends, drinking, you fucking name it) they'll become accustomed to the experience and adopt it in droves. Which leaves me with one question for you: do people still drive the Ford Model T on the road? My point should be obvious. Time changes things drastically. Either adopt the future or become obsolete. I can't stand people who can't stand change. How does it feel to be considered old?

bengl3rt 14y ago
"Do people still drive the Ford Model T" The ones that love it do. They even restore them and have meets where hundreds of them get together in the same place. My car has a strong enthusiast community around it now and I hope that will continue long into the future.