3 ms·

Batteries on the grid are really more for load smoothing; demand/supply peak flattening and transient spikes. They're really too expensive to do what someone wo

Batteries on the grid are really more for load smoothing; demand/supply peak flattening and transient spikes. They're really too expensive to do what someone would think of as "storage". Our recent govt installation is reported at $1.6bn for 2000MWh, which is incredibly expensive, and can't scale to run the grid, simply smooth load/demand diurnal curves.

toomuchtodo 1y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43624390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43624390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43624308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43624308 https://www.vox.com/climate/408381/energy-transition-renewables-grid-scale-energy-storage-giant-batteries https://www.vox.com/climate/408381/energy-transition-renewab... | https://archive.today/sZFxF https://archive.today/sZFxF https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64586 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64586 https://about.bnef.com/blog/lithium-ion-battery-pack-prices-see-largest-drop-since-2017-falling-to-115-per-kilowatt-hour-bloombergnef/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/lithium-ion-battery-pack-prices-... https://ourworldindata.org/battery-price-decline https://ourworldindata.org/battery-price-decline
- Incipient 1y ago
  The $1.6bn for 2000MWh is the current price, so that includes all recent drops. I'm not saying "at some point" batteries won't be viable as grid "storage", I'm just saying today they aren't.
  - hnaccount_rng 1y ago
    I'm really not sure about that. There is a recent "renovation" of a pumped storage site in Germany for more than 300EUR per kWh of storage capacity. Unfortunately I cannot find the original "Bürgerinformationen"-slides again. And it is a local, probably heavily politics-influenced provider, so maybe a lot of that is political landscaping. But I haven't been able to find a lot of anything with respect to storage prices beyond batteries. And I was really surprised that this renovation is the same order of magnitude than a battery installation. You are still correct in the sense that storage is still incredibly expensive per hour of demand stored, but batteries may very well already be the cheapest option out there
    - rurban 1y ago
      German has no height. For their 11m pumped storage a battery may come close. But for the mountainous countries around hydro storage is much more effective and cheaper. They do have up to 1000m and more. And they are terribly effective to hold the peaks and spikes. Austria and Switzerland are getting rich selling their peak capacity to the big countries nearby.
      - hnaccount_rng 1y ago
        Do you have some sources to their actual pricing? Some while ago I tried and came up blank. I assume your statements to be correct, because otherwise what would be the point of discussion, but I haven't been able to find any hard(ish) data
        rurban 1y ago
        My source is a manager from a local energy company
        hnaccount_rng 1y ago
        Fair enough, unfortunately doesn’t help me. But thanks for the answer anyways
      - ahartmetz 1y ago
        That particular reservoir may not have much elevation difference, but Germany is far from flat. There are many mountain ranges of a few hundred to over 1000 meters of elevation in the southern 65% or so of the country. They aren't impressive, but enough for pumped storage, at least if you only consider elevation differences.
    - Incipient 1y ago
      This is our local Australian one, and the build price is an absolute joke which pretty much everyone puts down to incompetence, is 12bn. It's 5x the cost of the above linked battery for 120x the capacity (350GWh vs 2GWh). And this should be in operation for a lot longer than batteries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_2.0_Pumped_Storage_Power_Station https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_2.0_Pumped_Storage_Pow...

toomuchtodo 1y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43624390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43624390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43624308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43624308 https://www.vox.com/climate/408381/energy-transition-renewables-grid-scale-energy-storage-giant-batteries https://www.vox.com/climate/408381/energy-transition-renewab... | https://archive.today/sZFxF https://archive.today/sZFxF https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64586 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64586 https://about.bnef.com/blog/lithium-ion-battery-pack-prices-see-largest-drop-since-2017-falling-to-115-per-kilowatt-hour-bloombergnef/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/lithium-ion-battery-pack-prices-... https://ourworldindata.org/battery-price-decline https://ourworldindata.org/battery-price-decline

Incipient 1y ago
The $1.6bn for 2000MWh is the current price, so that includes all recent drops. I'm not saying "at some point" batteries won't be viable as grid "storage", I'm just saying today they aren't.
- hnaccount_rng 1y ago
  I'm really not sure about that. There is a recent "renovation" of a pumped storage site in Germany for more than 300EUR per kWh of storage capacity. Unfortunately I cannot find the original "Bürgerinformationen"-slides again. And it is a local, probably heavily politics-influenced provider, so maybe a lot of that is political landscaping. But I haven't been able to find a lot of anything with respect to storage prices beyond batteries. And I was really surprised that this renovation is the same order of magnitude than a battery installation. You are still correct in the sense that storage is still incredibly expensive per hour of demand stored, but batteries may very well already be the cheapest option out there
  - rurban 1y ago
    German has no height. For their 11m pumped storage a battery may come close. But for the mountainous countries around hydro storage is much more effective and cheaper. They do have up to 1000m and more. And they are terribly effective to hold the peaks and spikes. Austria and Switzerland are getting rich selling their peak capacity to the big countries nearby.
    - hnaccount_rng 1y ago
      Do you have some sources to their actual pricing? Some while ago I tried and came up blank. I assume your statements to be correct, because otherwise what would be the point of discussion, but I haven't been able to find any hard(ish) data
      - rurban 1y ago
        My source is a manager from a local energy company
        hnaccount_rng 1y ago
        Fair enough, unfortunately doesn’t help me. But thanks for the answer anyways
    - ahartmetz 1y ago
      That particular reservoir may not have much elevation difference, but Germany is far from flat. There are many mountain ranges of a few hundred to over 1000 meters of elevation in the southern 65% or so of the country. They aren't impressive, but enough for pumped storage, at least if you only consider elevation differences.
  - Incipient 1y ago
    This is our local Australian one, and the build price is an absolute joke which pretty much everyone puts down to incompetence, is 12bn. It's 5x the cost of the above linked battery for 120x the capacity (350GWh vs 2GWh). And this should be in operation for a lot longer than batteries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_2.0_Pumped_Storage_Power_Station https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_2.0_Pumped_Storage_Pow...