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"Clojure basically obsoletes Ruby and Python" "Clojure is a uniform attack on everything of value in the Ruby, Python and Node.js world" This kind of smugness[

"Clojure basically obsoletes Ruby and Python" "Clojure is a uniform attack on everything of value in the Ruby, Python and Node.js world" This kind of smugness[1] is one reason why Clojure will never take over the world. It seems to be some kind of unwritten rule that every Clojure evangelist has to knock another language in any post anywhere [2]. Ugh. I am a great admirer of Rich Hickey (the man is a genius), and am happily using Clojure in my present project, but this kind of triumphalist rhetoric is a big turn off. I don't think Clojure "obsoletes" Ruby or Python, anymore than Haskell or Erlang "obsoletes" the various lisps. [1] This attitude seems particularly endemic amongst people who've moved to Clojure from the early Ruby on Rails community, where sneering at alternative frameworks was part of the culture. Rich Hickey, while justifiably proud of his language, as he should be, never makes silly statements like this. [2] see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4272186 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4272186 for an embedded gratuitous swipe at Scala in an otherwise insightful post.

KirinDave 14y ago
I am not going to be your proxy for every perceived irritant in the course of discussing lisp. Asking me to be this is unfair. You can say I am some sort of hater and now it's Rails's turn, but I've been consistent with this even when I was a full time rails programmer [1]. You can find essays by me on the inadequacies of Rails dating back years now [2]. The very things I was complaining about in 2007 are now the glaring flaws in modern Rails. So I made the decision to strike out for tools that don't have a cultural bias against progress in areas I believe important. So, if I am a Smug Lisp Weenie, then surely I am also a Smug Scala Weenie. And a Smug Erlang Weenie. And a Smug Haskell Weenie. And a Smug Ruby Weenie. And a Smug Hadoop Weenie. And a Smug C weenie... Because one thing I've made very clear is that I think attachment to tools is the problem. We should always aim to use the best tools at our disposal, and I think the place where Python and Ruby are the best tools are shrinking under the onslaught of the competition. Argument from familiarity is something I simply cannot bear to listen to anymore. If believing this makes me smug then I guess I am smug. [1] http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/06/multicore_hardware_and_the_fut.html http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/06/multicore_hardwa... [2] http://dave.fayr.am/posts/2008-11-20-the-opposite-of-momentum.html http://dave.fayr.am/posts/2008-11-20-the-opposite-of-momentu...
- plinkplonk 14y ago
  "You can say I am some sort of hater and now it's Rails's turn" Oh but that's not what I said. I said that claims of Clojure "obsoleting" Ruby/Python reek of smugness once prevalent in RoR and Common Lisp communities, and do turn off intelligent people. You can like and evangelize Clojure without making such rabid claims, especially when they are unsupported by data or strong arguments. "We should always aim to use the best tools at our disposal," This is a non controversial position. The "smugness" is in going beyond such sane positions and declaring Clojure to be some kind of uber Ruby/Python killer without any supporting data or arguments. "and I think the place where Python and Ruby are the best tools are shrinking under the onslaught of the competition." This is more dubious. Do you have any supporting data? What do you see as "competition" to Ruby or Python? Clojure? in terms of deployed systems, Clojure is barely a blip (wrt RoR, say). I know many intelligent devs using and liking Clojure, but also other intelligent devs using and liking Python and Ruby. I even know (horror!) people who know all three and don't always choose Clojure. Also, it is pretty hard to characterize Clojure as an "onslaught" on Ruby in any fashion (afaik Rich Hickey doesn't have such an onslaught as part of his goals for Clojure development), or as an "obsoleting" language, which is a very strong claim. Strong claims require strong supporting evidence. In fairness to you, you did say " I think that .. " which brings me to "Argument from familiarity is something I simply cannot bear to listen to anymore." Totally agreed. Now apply that to your Clojure evangelism/praise. ;-) Fwiw I am working on a Clojure project, and quite like the language. It is extremely well designed and (given the limitations of the JVM) very elegant. But I don't have a stake in proclaiming it to "obsolete" Ruby/Python etc - at least not without some very convincing arguments - certainly not just "argument from familiarity" ;-) All that said, I gladly concede that Clojure is some kind of ultra uber language in your experience, in the interest of stopping this thread from expanding fruitlessly. PS: Decent essays btw. Now apply the same critical eye to Clojure :)
  - dhkl 14y ago
    I've found the Clojure community at large to be well reasoned in general and very intelligent. KirinDave's posts may be a little hot, but I think it is a sign of growth for Clojure. Ruby/Rails also had (has? ;-) ) a problem with smugness as it was gathering rabid following. Let's hope that this is a sign that Clojure is also building up a gathering of all sorts of interesting characters :-)

KirinDave 14y ago

I am not going to be your proxy for every perceived irritant in the course of discussing lisp. Asking me to be this is unfair. You can say I am some sort of hater and now it's Rails's turn, but I've been consistent with this even when I was a full time rails programmer [1]. You can find essays by me on the inadequacies of Rails dating back years now [2]. The very things I was complaining about in 2007 are now the glaring flaws in modern Rails. So I made the decision to strike out for tools that don't have a cultural bias against progress in areas I believe important. So, if I am a Smug Lisp Weenie, then surely I am also a Smug Scala Weenie. And a Smug Erlang Weenie. And a Smug Haskell Weenie. And a Smug Ruby Weenie. And a Smug Hadoop Weenie. And a Smug C weenie... Because one thing I've made very clear is that I think attachment to tools is the problem. We should always aim to use the best tools at our disposal, and I think the place where Python and Ruby are the best tools are shrinking under the onslaught of the competition. Argument from familiarity is something I simply cannot bear to listen to anymore. If believing this makes me smug then I guess I am smug. [1] http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/06/multicore_hardware_and_the_fut.html http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/06/multicore_hardwa... [2] http://dave.fayr.am/posts/2008-11-20-the-opposite-of-momentum.html http://dave.fayr.am/posts/2008-11-20-the-opposite-of-momentu...

plinkplonk 14y ago
"You can say I am some sort of hater and now it's Rails's turn" Oh but that's not what I said. I said that claims of Clojure "obsoleting" Ruby/Python reek of smugness once prevalent in RoR and Common Lisp communities, and do turn off intelligent people. You can like and evangelize Clojure without making such rabid claims, especially when they are unsupported by data or strong arguments. "We should always aim to use the best tools at our disposal," This is a non controversial position. The "smugness" is in going beyond such sane positions and declaring Clojure to be some kind of uber Ruby/Python killer without any supporting data or arguments. "and I think the place where Python and Ruby are the best tools are shrinking under the onslaught of the competition." This is more dubious. Do you have any supporting data? What do you see as "competition" to Ruby or Python? Clojure? in terms of deployed systems, Clojure is barely a blip (wrt RoR, say). I know many intelligent devs using and liking Clojure, but also other intelligent devs using and liking Python and Ruby. I even know (horror!) people who know all three and don't always choose Clojure. Also, it is pretty hard to characterize Clojure as an "onslaught" on Ruby in any fashion (afaik Rich Hickey doesn't have such an onslaught as part of his goals for Clojure development), or as an "obsoleting" language, which is a very strong claim. Strong claims require strong supporting evidence. In fairness to you, you did say " I think that .. " which brings me to "Argument from familiarity is something I simply cannot bear to listen to anymore." Totally agreed. Now apply that to your Clojure evangelism/praise. ;-) Fwiw I am working on a Clojure project, and quite like the language. It is extremely well designed and (given the limitations of the JVM) very elegant. But I don't have a stake in proclaiming it to "obsolete" Ruby/Python etc - at least not without some very convincing arguments - certainly not just "argument from familiarity" ;-) All that said, I gladly concede that Clojure is some kind of ultra uber language in your experience, in the interest of stopping this thread from expanding fruitlessly. PS: Decent essays btw. Now apply the same critical eye to Clojure :)
- dhkl 14y ago
  I've found the Clojure community at large to be well reasoned in general and very intelligent. KirinDave's posts may be a little hot, but I think it is a sign of growth for Clojure. Ruby/Rails also had (has? ;-) ) a problem with smugness as it was gathering rabid following. Let's hope that this is a sign that Clojure is also building up a gathering of all sorts of interesting characters :-)