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Within reason, which is why soldiers train with blank-firing adapters and blanks, and not live ordnance when simulating combat. Turning ADS-B on/off likely has

Within reason, which is why soldiers train with blank-firing adapters and blanks, and not live ordnance when simulating combat. Turning ADS-B on/off likely has zero effect on the training/fighting relationship.

ceejayoz 1y ago
The article says the reason is a bit different - that the route they were practicing is (in theory) sensitive information. > But the Black Hawk did not operate with the technology because of the confidentiality of the mission for which the crew was practicing. That is because ADS-B Out positions can be obtained by anyone with an internet connection, making the system a potential risk to national security. Seems like leaving it in listen-only mode would be wise, though.
- xhkkffbf 1y ago
  They were coming back from Langley. I'm told it was just to "refuel."
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    On one hand, I've got a reputable news organization publishing an article with specific information from experts, pilots, etc. On the other hand, I've got an internet rando who once told me to Google up MGTOW saying "I'm told". Which one would you find credible?
  - jjwiseman 1y ago
    It wasn't coming back from Langley. That's misinformation from people who don't know the subtleties of what's displayed by flight tracking sites. For more info see https://x.com/aeroscouting/status/1884983390392488306 https://x.com/aeroscouting/status/1884983390392488306
- alistairSH 1y ago
  The route is a public/known helicopter flight path. There's nothing secret about it. Here's a map of the helicopter routes in the area. In this case, they were flying on route 4... https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3851p.ct004873/?r=0.67,0.258,0.189,0.104,0 https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3851p.ct004873/?r=0.67,0.258,0... Yes, this group transports VIPs and sometimes does so in secret. This training flight was a "simple" check-ride for the pilot (simple in scare quotes because part of the ride was using the NVGs, which strikes me as fairly ridiculous in the DCA air space).
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    The route itself, sure. When this specific helicopter/mission joins the route, how fast it goes, what callsign it uses, when it leaves the route, etc. may not be so public. Or at least be treated as "try not to make it unnecessarily public". Overclassification is absolutely a thing, too. I recall when the Snowden NSA leaks came out, government employees were still forbidden from reading the documents, even if they were published in the newspapers. Pointless? Yes. But those were the rules.
    - ClumsyPilot 1y ago
      Surely either you are training, or you are on a mission, but in that case you should be competent pilot. training on a confidential mission is just inviting disaster
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        Training for a mission tends to mean pretending it's the real mission, as closely as possible. People fire off $100k missiles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrhybKEzb-0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrhybKEzb-0) so they know what it'll be like to do it in combat for real. Competent people still make mistakes. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near DCA airspace, personally.
        alistairSH 1y ago
        The ADSB is a simple switch. All it does is broadcast the position. It would have had zero impact on operational readiness. It’s not like they were actually flying “dark” - lights were on, they were in context with ATC, etc.
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  Listen-only mode would be ADS-B In. Black Hawk's support ADS-B Out. 1. C-17 Globemaster III (transport) 2. C-130 Hercules (transport) 3. KC-135 Stratotanker (tanker) 4. KC-10 Extender (tanker) 5. P-8 Poseidon (maritime patrol/reconnaissance) 6. E-3 Sentry (AWACS) 7. E-8 Joint STARS (reconnaissance) ^ above have ADS-B In capability This answer on Aviation Stack Exchange did some research into ADS-B statistics for military aircraft: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/107851/military-aircraft-ads-b-receivers https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/107851/military... TCAS (collision avoidance) can use Mode A/C/S however it depends on if the aircraft has the earlier or later model TCAS: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/90356/does-tcas-ii-work-and-give-ra-with-mode-c-or-mode-a-transponders https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/90356/does-tcas...
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    They'll all have both in and out capability. (It's typically the same device.) Military aircraft have permission from the FAA to turn off one, or both, for fairly obvious reasons. https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/communications-navigation-surveillance-cns/ads-b/faa-permits-ads-b-off-military-sensitive-flights/ https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/communications-navigati...
    - firesteelrain 1y ago
      I don't think the Black Hawk can support ADS-B In and usually its the surveillance type aircraft that carry it. I updated my post above. There is limited cockpit space in Black Hawks anyways. There might be a specific modernization occurring for a variant of UH-60 that has ADS-B IN, but vast majority do not.
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        Every aircraft in controlled airspace is required to have ADS-B transponders, and any aircraft with Out has In as well (In is the easy one; it just listens; you can even build your own with a Raspberry Pi - https://www.flightaware.com/adsb/piaware/build/ https://www.flightaware.com/adsb/piaware/build/ and a $36 receiver https://flightaware.store/products/pro-stick https://flightaware.store/products/pro-stick). You can buy a portable ADS-B In receiver the size of a wallet for $400 and get traffic alerts on an iPad. https://flywithsentry.com/buy https://flywithsentry.com/buy My dad's little four seat hobby plane has both In/Out. You can track him on FlightAware as a result, because it's continually broadcasting its location; it's certainly not rare or sophisticated equipment. Here's a military Blackhawk toodling around as we speak: https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae27fc https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae27fc https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/blackhawk-ads-b-was-off-because-mission-profile-was-classified/ https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/blackhawk-ads-b-was-off-... > The Army Black Hawk helicopter crew involved in the midair collision with an American Eagle CRJ700 last January at Reagan National Airport had turned off ADS-B because they were practicing a classified flight profile, according to a New York Times investigation.
- 542354234235 1y ago
  The route they were training for was to evac government personnel during an emergency (terrorism, incoming attack, etc.). ADS-B is live location whereas transponder is delayed. In a real scenario, you wouldn’t want to be transmitting live location, since whatever the emergency is likely involves targeting of VIP government personnel. But in training, that would not effect your training, since the ADS-B is for others benefit, and doesn’t change your situational awareness or capability. edit: To add and make clear, the route will be known for a training or real situation, but it will be delayed. So for training, turning off the ADS-B does not protect the route information and that is why there is no reason to fly with it off for training.
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    If you train to turn the ADS-B on, there's a decent chance you'll turn it on during the real thing. That's the point of training.
    - firesteelrain 1y ago
      You are insisting that this was a training thing. But realistically, military just doesn’t like to be tracked and would rather put everyone else at risk.
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        I’m not insisting - it’s stated in the article.
        firesteelrain 1y ago
        We shouldn’t take the article at face value. Reporters are lazy and don’t do in-depth reporting. It’s to drive clicks.

ceejayoz 1y ago

The article says the reason is a bit different - that the route they were practicing is (in theory) sensitive information. > But the Black Hawk did not operate with the technology because of the confidentiality of the mission for which the crew was practicing. That is because ADS-B Out positions can be obtained by anyone with an internet connection, making the system a potential risk to national security. Seems like leaving it in listen-only mode would be wise, though.

xhkkffbf 1y ago
They were coming back from Langley. I'm told it was just to "refuel."
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  On one hand, I've got a reputable news organization publishing an article with specific information from experts, pilots, etc. On the other hand, I've got an internet rando who once told me to Google up MGTOW saying "I'm told". Which one would you find credible?
- jjwiseman 1y ago
  It wasn't coming back from Langley. That's misinformation from people who don't know the subtleties of what's displayed by flight tracking sites. For more info see https://x.com/aeroscouting/status/1884983390392488306 https://x.com/aeroscouting/status/1884983390392488306
alistairSH 1y ago
The route is a public/known helicopter flight path. There's nothing secret about it. Here's a map of the helicopter routes in the area. In this case, they were flying on route 4... https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3851p.ct004873/?r=0.67,0.258,0.189,0.104,0 https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3851p.ct004873/?r=0.67,0.258,0... Yes, this group transports VIPs and sometimes does so in secret. This training flight was a "simple" check-ride for the pilot (simple in scare quotes because part of the ride was using the NVGs, which strikes me as fairly ridiculous in the DCA air space).
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  The route itself, sure. When this specific helicopter/mission joins the route, how fast it goes, what callsign it uses, when it leaves the route, etc. may not be so public. Or at least be treated as "try not to make it unnecessarily public". Overclassification is absolutely a thing, too. I recall when the Snowden NSA leaks came out, government employees were still forbidden from reading the documents, even if they were published in the newspapers. Pointless? Yes. But those were the rules.
  - ClumsyPilot 1y ago
    Surely either you are training, or you are on a mission, but in that case you should be competent pilot. training on a confidential mission is just inviting disaster
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      Training for a mission tends to mean pretending it's the real mission, as closely as possible. People fire off $100k missiles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrhybKEzb-0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrhybKEzb-0) so they know what it'll be like to do it in combat for real. Competent people still make mistakes. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near DCA airspace, personally.
      - alistairSH 1y ago
        The ADSB is a simple switch. All it does is broadcast the position. It would have had zero impact on operational readiness. It’s not like they were actually flying “dark” - lights were on, they were in context with ATC, etc.
firesteelrain 1y ago
Listen-only mode would be ADS-B In. Black Hawk's support ADS-B Out. 1. C-17 Globemaster III (transport) 2. C-130 Hercules (transport) 3. KC-135 Stratotanker (tanker) 4. KC-10 Extender (tanker) 5. P-8 Poseidon (maritime patrol/reconnaissance) 6. E-3 Sentry (AWACS) 7. E-8 Joint STARS (reconnaissance) ^ above have ADS-B In capability This answer on Aviation Stack Exchange did some research into ADS-B statistics for military aircraft: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/107851/military-aircraft-ads-b-receivers https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/107851/military... TCAS (collision avoidance) can use Mode A/C/S however it depends on if the aircraft has the earlier or later model TCAS: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/90356/does-tcas-ii-work-and-give-ra-with-mode-c-or-mode-a-transponders https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/90356/does-tcas...
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  They'll all have both in and out capability. (It's typically the same device.) Military aircraft have permission from the FAA to turn off one, or both, for fairly obvious reasons. https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/communications-navigation-surveillance-cns/ads-b/faa-permits-ads-b-off-military-sensitive-flights/ https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/communications-navigati...
  - firesteelrain 1y ago
    I don't think the Black Hawk can support ADS-B In and usually its the surveillance type aircraft that carry it. I updated my post above. There is limited cockpit space in Black Hawks anyways. There might be a specific modernization occurring for a variant of UH-60 that has ADS-B IN, but vast majority do not.
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      Every aircraft in controlled airspace is required to have ADS-B transponders, and any aircraft with Out has In as well (In is the easy one; it just listens; you can even build your own with a Raspberry Pi - https://www.flightaware.com/adsb/piaware/build/ https://www.flightaware.com/adsb/piaware/build/ and a $36 receiver https://flightaware.store/products/pro-stick https://flightaware.store/products/pro-stick). You can buy a portable ADS-B In receiver the size of a wallet for $400 and get traffic alerts on an iPad. https://flywithsentry.com/buy https://flywithsentry.com/buy My dad's little four seat hobby plane has both In/Out. You can track him on FlightAware as a result, because it's continually broadcasting its location; it's certainly not rare or sophisticated equipment. Here's a military Blackhawk toodling around as we speak: https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae27fc https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae27fc https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/blackhawk-ads-b-was-off-because-mission-profile-was-classified/ https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/blackhawk-ads-b-was-off-... > The Army Black Hawk helicopter crew involved in the midair collision with an American Eagle CRJ700 last January at Reagan National Airport had turned off ADS-B because they were practicing a classified flight profile, according to a New York Times investigation.
542354234235 1y ago
The route they were training for was to evac government personnel during an emergency (terrorism, incoming attack, etc.). ADS-B is live location whereas transponder is delayed. In a real scenario, you wouldn’t want to be transmitting live location, since whatever the emergency is likely involves targeting of VIP government personnel. But in training, that would not effect your training, since the ADS-B is for others benefit, and doesn’t change your situational awareness or capability. edit: To add and make clear, the route will be known for a training or real situation, but it will be delayed. So for training, turning off the ADS-B does not protect the route information and that is why there is no reason to fly with it off for training.
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  If you train to turn the ADS-B on, there's a decent chance you'll turn it on during the real thing. That's the point of training.
  - firesteelrain 1y ago
    You are insisting that this was a training thing. But realistically, military just doesn’t like to be tracked and would rather put everyone else at risk.
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      I’m not insisting - it’s stated in the article.
      - firesteelrain 1y ago
        We shouldn’t take the article at face value. Reporters are lazy and don’t do in-depth reporting. It’s to drive clicks.