4 ms·

More expensive than Apple’s ARM computers, less battery efficient, Lame (and I bet this will stand up to the test of time better than the original quote)

bigyabai 2y ago
It would be easier to agree with you if any PC manufacturers were rushing out to fill the consumer ARM PC market. But they aren't. Qualcomm is sorta just jerking off, Nvidia has the licenses but doesn't want to negotiate with Softbank, and AMD hasn't made a serious ARM-related effort in a decade. The only ARM PC options are the ones that lock you in with MacOS and Apple as your computer nanny. And those customers would buy a Power ISA laptop in 2025 if Tim Cook said it was cutting-edge. In the end, it sure looks like the ARM detractors were right. Architectural licenses made it so nobody except Softbank partners could afford to design an ARM core. Stock ARM core designs are outright anemic and inefficient even compared to decade-old x86 cores, meaning Broadcom or Rockchip can't just release a board and compete with AMD and Intel. Nowadays, international detente is down the toilet, Softbank is seen as a penny-pincher, and RISC-V is already being shipped in place of ARM microprocessors in mass-market computer hardware. Apple basically ruined the entire ISA in the process of making it marginally competitive with generations-old silicon.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  It doesn’t matter why Intel products are worse in every dimension, the fact is that they are and looking at Intel’s most recently quarterly results, customers and the market agree. They lost over $800 million last quarter.
  - bigyabai 2y ago
    I agree that Intel is now reaping precisely what they've sowed. But if making money is the goal, buying an ARM architectural license would have put Intel in an early grave. The rest of the industry agrees - nobody without direct leverage over Softbank is able turn a profit designing and shipping ARM hardware. I understand how Mac users would argue that sacrificing ARM to Moloch makes great PCs. But it also hamstrings the rest of the industry, prevents direct competition, slows down ARM proliferation and accelerates the development of foreign replacements like RISC-V. As a fan of ARM, I cannot say I'm happy with the stewardship Softbank exercises over the IP.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      How is ARM proliferation being slowed down? Amazon, Microsoft, Meta and Google are all designing their own ARM based server chips. Apple has been making money hand over fist designing ARM based hardware since 2010 with the A4. Amazon is saving billions using its own custom chips for both servers and specialized networking chips. But the fact is that Intel has to figure out something. Right now x86 may not be dead. But it is smelling funny. They are selling fewer desktops, servers and are non existent in mobile.
    - hakfoo 2y ago
      Insane idea: Intel releases a big RISC-V product, even if it's just an existing Lake with a new decoder on the front. I could imagine it sucking a lot of air out of the competitive ecosystem. Anyone working on with fiddly little Rasperry Pi class products to help get the platform bootstrapped to full desktop performance suddenly has to compete with a much heavier opponent.
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        And does that serve any real market? Mobile? Low end laptops (Chrome)? laptops? Desktops (a small part of the market)? Servers?
        hakfoo 2y ago
        It torpedoes an emerging threat.

bigyabai 2y ago

It would be easier to agree with you if any PC manufacturers were rushing out to fill the consumer ARM PC market. But they aren't. Qualcomm is sorta just jerking off, Nvidia has the licenses but doesn't want to negotiate with Softbank, and AMD hasn't made a serious ARM-related effort in a decade. The only ARM PC options are the ones that lock you in with MacOS and Apple as your computer nanny. And those customers would buy a Power ISA laptop in 2025 if Tim Cook said it was cutting-edge. In the end, it sure looks like the ARM detractors were right. Architectural licenses made it so nobody except Softbank partners could afford to design an ARM core. Stock ARM core designs are outright anemic and inefficient even compared to decade-old x86 cores, meaning Broadcom or Rockchip can't just release a board and compete with AMD and Intel. Nowadays, international detente is down the toilet, Softbank is seen as a penny-pincher, and RISC-V is already being shipped in place of ARM microprocessors in mass-market computer hardware. Apple basically ruined the entire ISA in the process of making it marginally competitive with generations-old silicon.

scarface_74 2y ago
It doesn’t matter why Intel products are worse in every dimension, the fact is that they are and looking at Intel’s most recently quarterly results, customers and the market agree. They lost over $800 million last quarter.
- bigyabai 2y ago
  I agree that Intel is now reaping precisely what they've sowed. But if making money is the goal, buying an ARM architectural license would have put Intel in an early grave. The rest of the industry agrees - nobody without direct leverage over Softbank is able turn a profit designing and shipping ARM hardware. I understand how Mac users would argue that sacrificing ARM to Moloch makes great PCs. But it also hamstrings the rest of the industry, prevents direct competition, slows down ARM proliferation and accelerates the development of foreign replacements like RISC-V. As a fan of ARM, I cannot say I'm happy with the stewardship Softbank exercises over the IP.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    How is ARM proliferation being slowed down? Amazon, Microsoft, Meta and Google are all designing their own ARM based server chips. Apple has been making money hand over fist designing ARM based hardware since 2010 with the A4. Amazon is saving billions using its own custom chips for both servers and specialized networking chips. But the fact is that Intel has to figure out something. Right now x86 may not be dead. But it is smelling funny. They are selling fewer desktops, servers and are non existent in mobile.
  - hakfoo 2y ago
    Insane idea: Intel releases a big RISC-V product, even if it's just an existing Lake with a new decoder on the front. I could imagine it sucking a lot of air out of the competitive ecosystem. Anyone working on with fiddly little Rasperry Pi class products to help get the platform bootstrapped to full desktop performance suddenly has to compete with a much heavier opponent.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      And does that serve any real market? Mobile? Low end laptops (Chrome)? laptops? Desktops (a small part of the market)? Servers?
      - hakfoo 2y ago
        It torpedoes an emerging threat.