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100% this. I’d take it a step further and say that sales tax should be included when you are logged in and it can be anticipated, like is the case in most other

100% this. I’d take it a step further and say that sales tax should be included when you are logged in and it can be anticipated, like is the case in most other countries.

bluGill 1y ago
Sales tax cannot be per-calculated, since it is charged on the total sale. Rounding errors will get you. (when I worked fast food 30 years ago one value meal was $3.18, but two were $6.27) The government pays attention to this type of thing and they will get you for those pennies. (remember there are many governments, it is possibly all the local governments in question would decide not to pay attention, but that doesn't mean those rules apply to someone else who lives in a different area and thus has different local governments)
- pentamassiv 1y ago
  Sure it can. It works perfectly fine in many other countries.
  - xienze 1y ago
    There's a slight difference between having one tax rate at the country level and having numerous differing state and local sales tax rates. You don't even know what to charge the customer until you know their exact location.
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      Other countries have states and cities, too. (And in the fast food example, the customer's home location doesn't matter. The store's does.)
      - xienze 1y ago
        But do they have the same kind of state and local sales tax rules that we do? Again, _you can't know the price to display if you don't know where exactly in the country the package is going_. It is not possible to display the "final price" in US online stores ahead of checkout unless the user is already logged in AND the shipping address is the same as where the user lives. The juice is not worth the squeeze for online retailers. Users are used to seeing the final amount at checkout and you know, it's really not that hard to mentally estimate <price of thing I'm buying plus 10%> (which is actually usually an overestimate).
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        That's an argument for fixing the rules. As functional rules in this regard are clearly possible to create. The EU has a similar smattering of disparate jurisdictions (with varying VAT rates) just like the US does.
        xienze 1y ago
        Googling says 27 tax jurisdictions in the EU versus over 13000 in the US. Again, not quite as simple as you're making it out to be. And for what? Making the checkout process slightly more convenient for people who lack the mental ability to estimate their total?
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        > Googling says 27 tax jurisdictions in the EU versus over 13000 in the US. Cool, great place to start. Let's fix that. Both have similar land mass, similar populations, similar balance of federal-ish and state-ish and local-ish governance, similar cultures, etc. > And for what? Making the checkout process slightly more convenient for people who lack the mental ability to estimate their total? Surely handling 13k tax jurisdictions is expensive for businesses and consumers on many levels?
        bluGill 1y ago
        what are the unintended concecuences of your plan? Until you figure themout don't propose a change as it might be overall worse.
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  > Sales tax cannot be per-calculated, since it is charged on the total sale. Most of the developed world pre-calculates sales tax. If McDonalds charges you $10.32 in Australia, the government gets $0.84(8181812...) of it. Rounding isn't an issue because you don't write a check for each individual $0.84(8181812...), you pay them the aggregate amount on a regular basis.
  - Eisenstein 1y ago
    Here is a list of 20 district sales taxes in California alone (out of ~150). Los Angeles County Measure H: 0.25%, 10-01-2017 to 03-31-2025 City of Orland Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2017 to 03-31-2025 Rio Dell City Transactions and Use Tax: 1.00%, 04-01-2015 to 12-31-2024 City of El Monte Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2009 to 03-31-2025 City of San Pablo Reduction Transactions and Use Tax: 0.25%, 10-01-2017 to 09-30-2022 Town of Truckee Trails Transactions and Use Tax: 0.25%, 10-01-2014 to 09-30-2024 City of La Habra Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2009 to 03-31-2025 City of Seal Beach Transactions and Use Tax: 1.00%, 04-01-2019 to 03-31-2025 City of Westminster Transactions and Use Tax: 1.00%, 04-01-2017 to 12-31-2022 City of Pismo Beach Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 10-01-2008 to 03-31-2025 Pacific Grove City Transactions and Use Tax: 1.00%, 10-01-2008 to 09-30-2022 Town of San Anselmo Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2014 to 03-31-2023 City of Sausalito 2014 Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2015 to 03-31-2023 Mariposa County Healthcare Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2005 to 03-31-2025 Mendocino County Mental Health Treatment Act Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2018 to 03-31-2023 Mendocino Library Special Transactions and Use Tax: 0.125%, 04-01-2012 to 03-31-2023 City of Atwater Public Safety Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 07-01-2013 to 03-31-2023 City of Capitola Transactions and Use Tax: 0.25%, 04-01-2005 to 03-31-2025 City of Campbell Vital City Services Transactions and Use Tax: 0.25%, 04-01-2009 to 03-31-2025 City of Davis Transactions and Use Tax: 1.00%, 10-01-2014 to 03-31-2025 * https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/cdtfa105.pdf https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/cdtfa105.pdf
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      Yes. This is silly. We should change it. (But it's largely an issue for online sales, not physical locations. The McDonalds in San Anselmo, barring The Big One, stays in San Anselmo.) See also: American healthcare, college, etc. "Our setup is absurdly complex in bad ways" is not an argument for keeping that setup, it's an argument for making fixes.
- AStonesThrow 1y ago
  > one value meal was $3.18, but two were $6.27 That sure is a HUGE rounding error! 9¢ savings by doubling up is nothing to sneeze at! > they will get you for those pennies Was your restaurant ever audited? That is a lot of pennies!
  - bluGill 1y ago
    Opps, my memory of prices is obviously wrong after 30 years. I can't tell you which number is right though. One penny times the thousand or so meals per day over a year adds up. I don't know if we were audited - but I' s we would have been shut down for failing the audit.
blululu 1y ago
Agreed in practice, but there is a key difference: sales tax is uniform for all products, import tariffs are not. As a customer I want to effectively compare prices between different options. For sales tax you can simply assume a uniform 9% bump. For tariffs the fee varies for comparable products. I would prefer knowing the full price ahead of times but I absolutely need to know the relative price ranking.
- phil21 1y ago
  > but there is a key difference: sales tax is uniform for all products Sales tax is not uniform for all products depending on your state. My home state for example does not charge sales tax on food items and clothing. Some other special categories also have different sales tax depending on what they are - e.g. vice taxes for some items.
  - xsmasher 1y ago
    Technically right but doesn't change their point. Sales tax is uniform for comparable products, tariffs are not.

100% this. I’d take it a step further and say that sales tax should be included when you are logged in and it can be anticipated, like is the case in most other countries.

bluGill 1y ago

Sales tax cannot be per-calculated, since it is charged on the total sale. Rounding errors will get you. (when I worked fast food 30 years ago one value meal was $3.18, but two were $6.27) The government pays attention to this type of thing and they will get you for those pennies. (remember there are many governments, it is possibly all the local governments in question would decide not to pay attention, but that doesn't mean those rules apply to someone else who lives in a different area and thus has different local governments)

pentamassiv 1y ago
Sure it can. It works perfectly fine in many other countries.
- xienze 1y ago
  There's a slight difference between having one tax rate at the country level and having numerous differing state and local sales tax rates. You don't even know what to charge the customer until you know their exact location.
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    Other countries have states and cities, too. (And in the fast food example, the customer's home location doesn't matter. The store's does.)
    - xienze 1y ago
      But do they have the same kind of state and local sales tax rules that we do? Again, _you can't know the price to display if you don't know where exactly in the country the package is going_. It is not possible to display the "final price" in US online stores ahead of checkout unless the user is already logged in AND the shipping address is the same as where the user lives. The juice is not worth the squeeze for online retailers. Users are used to seeing the final amount at checkout and you know, it's really not that hard to mentally estimate <price of thing I'm buying plus 10%> (which is actually usually an overestimate).
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        That's an argument for fixing the rules. As functional rules in this regard are clearly possible to create. The EU has a similar smattering of disparate jurisdictions (with varying VAT rates) just like the US does.
        xienze 1y ago
        Googling says 27 tax jurisdictions in the EU versus over 13000 in the US. Again, not quite as simple as you're making it out to be. And for what? Making the checkout process slightly more convenient for people who lack the mental ability to estimate their total?
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        > Googling says 27 tax jurisdictions in the EU versus over 13000 in the US. Cool, great place to start. Let's fix that. Both have similar land mass, similar populations, similar balance of federal-ish and state-ish and local-ish governance, similar cultures, etc. > And for what? Making the checkout process slightly more convenient for people who lack the mental ability to estimate their total? Surely handling 13k tax jurisdictions is expensive for businesses and consumers on many levels?
        bluGill 1y ago
        what are the unintended concecuences of your plan? Until you figure themout don't propose a change as it might be overall worse.
ceejayoz 1y ago
> Sales tax cannot be per-calculated, since it is charged on the total sale. Most of the developed world pre-calculates sales tax. If McDonalds charges you $10.32 in Australia, the government gets $0.84(8181812...) of it. Rounding isn't an issue because you don't write a check for each individual $0.84(8181812...), you pay them the aggregate amount on a regular basis.
- Eisenstein 1y ago
  Here is a list of 20 district sales taxes in California alone (out of ~150). Los Angeles County Measure H: 0.25%, 10-01-2017 to 03-31-2025 City of Orland Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2017 to 03-31-2025 Rio Dell City Transactions and Use Tax: 1.00%, 04-01-2015 to 12-31-2024 City of El Monte Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2009 to 03-31-2025 City of San Pablo Reduction Transactions and Use Tax: 0.25%, 10-01-2017 to 09-30-2022 Town of Truckee Trails Transactions and Use Tax: 0.25%, 10-01-2014 to 09-30-2024 City of La Habra Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2009 to 03-31-2025 City of Seal Beach Transactions and Use Tax: 1.00%, 04-01-2019 to 03-31-2025 City of Westminster Transactions and Use Tax: 1.00%, 04-01-2017 to 12-31-2022 City of Pismo Beach Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 10-01-2008 to 03-31-2025 Pacific Grove City Transactions and Use Tax: 1.00%, 10-01-2008 to 09-30-2022 Town of San Anselmo Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2014 to 03-31-2023 City of Sausalito 2014 Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2015 to 03-31-2023 Mariposa County Healthcare Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2005 to 03-31-2025 Mendocino County Mental Health Treatment Act Tax: 0.50%, 04-01-2018 to 03-31-2023 Mendocino Library Special Transactions and Use Tax: 0.125%, 04-01-2012 to 03-31-2023 City of Atwater Public Safety Transactions and Use Tax: 0.50%, 07-01-2013 to 03-31-2023 City of Capitola Transactions and Use Tax: 0.25%, 04-01-2005 to 03-31-2025 City of Campbell Vital City Services Transactions and Use Tax: 0.25%, 04-01-2009 to 03-31-2025 City of Davis Transactions and Use Tax: 1.00%, 10-01-2014 to 03-31-2025 * https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/cdtfa105.pdf https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/cdtfa105.pdf
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    Yes. This is silly. We should change it. (But it's largely an issue for online sales, not physical locations. The McDonalds in San Anselmo, barring The Big One, stays in San Anselmo.) See also: American healthcare, college, etc. "Our setup is absurdly complex in bad ways" is not an argument for keeping that setup, it's an argument for making fixes.
AStonesThrow 1y ago
> one value meal was $3.18, but two were $6.27 That sure is a HUGE rounding error! 9¢ savings by doubling up is nothing to sneeze at! > they will get you for those pennies Was your restaurant ever audited? That is a lot of pennies!
- bluGill 1y ago
  Opps, my memory of prices is obviously wrong after 30 years. I can't tell you which number is right though. One penny times the thousand or so meals per day over a year adds up. I don't know if we were audited - but I' s we would have been shut down for failing the audit.

blululu 1y ago

Agreed in practice, but there is a key difference: sales tax is uniform for all products, import tariffs are not. As a customer I want to effectively compare prices between different options. For sales tax you can simply assume a uniform 9% bump. For tariffs the fee varies for comparable products. I would prefer knowing the full price ahead of times but I absolutely need to know the relative price ranking.

phil21 1y ago
> but there is a key difference: sales tax is uniform for all products Sales tax is not uniform for all products depending on your state. My home state for example does not charge sales tax on food items and clothing. Some other special categories also have different sales tax depending on what they are - e.g. vice taxes for some items.
- xsmasher 1y ago
  Technically right but doesn't change their point. Sales tax is uniform for comparable products, tariffs are not.