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People will believe whatever they want to believe, well in advance of any concrete statement. The actual truth won't matter. The right will use this as a call t

by ta1243 1y ago

People will believe whatever they want to believe, well in advance of any concrete statement. The actual truth won't matter. The right will use this as a call to burn more coal, the left will say "it doesn't matter because the planet is at stake", and we'll move on. The reality doesn't matter to 90% of people.

mr_mitm 1y ago
But the planet is at stake. Do we not agree that the reality is that renewables are the only sustainable option for energy production?
- ta1243 1y ago
  The cause needs to be investigated and appropriate measures put in place. Renewables however can't be the only answer - storage is key too. Wide scale blackouts aren't exactly unknown, no matter what the generation. And while you and I may agree, sadly the people who need convincing are those who listen and vote for the parties who say "it doesn't matter what we do here when China builds more coal power plants a week than we've ever had". When they say "the reason you were without power is solar", and the opposition say "doesn't matter, you can't have gas", they aren't going to vote for the opposition.
- sofixa 1y ago
  > Do we not agree that the reality is that renewables are the only sustainable option for energy production? No, we do not, unless you use a very narrow definition of sustainable. Nuclear will play a big part, especially in Western Europe, thanks to France which exports to all its neighbours and is a good stabilising provider. And other than that, who knows. Green hydrogen could be a solution for energy storage.
  - adrianN 1y ago
    France is effectively planning to reduce nuclear power though. Since they want to keep nuclear weapons it won’t go to zero, but they’re not planning to build enough new reactors to maintain their current output. Electricity demand however will increase in the future.
  - ndr42 1y ago
    Since we are taking about the planet about "the planet at stake" I am not so sure that nuclear in france can play such a big part. Climate change will make it much more difficult, this is from Wikipedia: As of early September 2022, 32 of France's 56 nuclear reactors were shut down due to maintenance or technical problems. In 2022, Europe's driest summer in 500 years had serious consequences for power plant cooling systems, as the drought reduced the amount of river water available for cooling.
    - sofixa 1y ago
      > In 2022, Europe's driest summer in 500 years had serious consequences for power plant cooling systems, as the drought reduced the amount of river water available for cooling. And rules around this have been adjusted to have less of an impact for the next "once in a 500 years" event. Also, in the same way that France's nuclear power generation being out was covered by German and British renewables, during low points of renewable generation in those countries, French nuclear covered the gaps. That's the point of an interconnected network.
- polotics 1y ago
  renewables that could renew themselves would be great, but neither solar panels nor wind turbines have an energy return on energy invested. that looks good right now to really close the cycle. much trucking and container shipping is involved in the so-called renewable solution
Buxato 1y ago
Thanks non-people-smart 10%, the "right" it's only trying to not close the remaining nuclear plants. I didn't hear anybody call to burn more coal (that will be stupid, specially in Spain). New modern nuclear plants are needed to have a more balanced energy pool, and not depend so much in natural gas. Anyway there is no confirmation yet on what happened, we will see.
- mr_mitm 1y ago
  Well, here is one person who even has somewhat of an influence calling to burn more coal: https://www.npr.org/2025/04/16/nx-s1-5359013/trump-orders-coal-revival-market-favors-natural-gas https://www.npr.org/2025/04/16/nx-s1-5359013/trump-orders-co...
  - verzali 1y ago
    Trump is not president of Spain.
    - mr_mitm 1y ago
      Thanks, I know. At which point in this comment chain were we discussing the president of Spain though? Buxato stated they didn't hear "anybody", not "anybody in Spain".
    - ignoramous 1y ago
      Not yet... did lose in Canada though.
- ta1243 1y ago
  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/f4476083e9854ba3 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/f4476083e9854ba3 Richard Tice, the Reform party’s deputy leader and energy spokesman, said the events in Spain should be a warning to Britain and showed the risks of net zero. He said: “We need to know the exact causes but this should be seen as a wake-up call to the eco-zealots. “Power grids need to operate within tight parameters to remain stable. Wind and solar outputs by contrast, vary hugely over long and short periods so they add risk to the system. The UK’s grid operators and our Government should take heed.” That's the same Richard Tice that blamed a substation fire on Net Zero and wants to tax renewable power to subsidise non-renewables. A roundup of people jumping to conclusions is at https://reneweconomy.com.au/spains-blackout-has-already-triggered-a-firestorm-of-disinformation/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/spains-blackout-has-already-trig... > The core priority of grid services right now is getting power restored, rather than establishing the narrow chain of causal events, which will take weeks or likely months. That will be more than enough time for the narrative to be set in stone; immune to whatever reality emerges from careful investigation.

by ta1243 1y ago

mr_mitm 1y ago

But the planet is at stake. Do we not agree that the reality is that renewables are the only sustainable option for energy production?

ta1243 1y ago
The cause needs to be investigated and appropriate measures put in place. Renewables however can't be the only answer - storage is key too. Wide scale blackouts aren't exactly unknown, no matter what the generation. And while you and I may agree, sadly the people who need convincing are those who listen and vote for the parties who say "it doesn't matter what we do here when China builds more coal power plants a week than we've ever had". When they say "the reason you were without power is solar", and the opposition say "doesn't matter, you can't have gas", they aren't going to vote for the opposition.
sofixa 1y ago
> Do we not agree that the reality is that renewables are the only sustainable option for energy production? No, we do not, unless you use a very narrow definition of sustainable. Nuclear will play a big part, especially in Western Europe, thanks to France which exports to all its neighbours and is a good stabilising provider. And other than that, who knows. Green hydrogen could be a solution for energy storage.
- adrianN 1y ago
  France is effectively planning to reduce nuclear power though. Since they want to keep nuclear weapons it won’t go to zero, but they’re not planning to build enough new reactors to maintain their current output. Electricity demand however will increase in the future.
- ndr42 1y ago
  Since we are taking about the planet about "the planet at stake" I am not so sure that nuclear in france can play such a big part. Climate change will make it much more difficult, this is from Wikipedia: As of early September 2022, 32 of France's 56 nuclear reactors were shut down due to maintenance or technical problems. In 2022, Europe's driest summer in 500 years had serious consequences for power plant cooling systems, as the drought reduced the amount of river water available for cooling.
  - sofixa 1y ago
    > In 2022, Europe's driest summer in 500 years had serious consequences for power plant cooling systems, as the drought reduced the amount of river water available for cooling. And rules around this have been adjusted to have less of an impact for the next "once in a 500 years" event. Also, in the same way that France's nuclear power generation being out was covered by German and British renewables, during low points of renewable generation in those countries, French nuclear covered the gaps. That's the point of an interconnected network.
polotics 1y ago
renewables that could renew themselves would be great, but neither solar panels nor wind turbines have an energy return on energy invested. that looks good right now to really close the cycle. much trucking and container shipping is involved in the so-called renewable solution

Buxato 1y ago

Thanks non-people-smart 10%, the "right" it's only trying to not close the remaining nuclear plants. I didn't hear anybody call to burn more coal (that will be stupid, specially in Spain). New modern nuclear plants are needed to have a more balanced energy pool, and not depend so much in natural gas. Anyway there is no confirmation yet on what happened, we will see.

mr_mitm 1y ago
Well, here is one person who even has somewhat of an influence calling to burn more coal: https://www.npr.org/2025/04/16/nx-s1-5359013/trump-orders-coal-revival-market-favors-natural-gas https://www.npr.org/2025/04/16/nx-s1-5359013/trump-orders-co...
- verzali 1y ago
  Trump is not president of Spain.
  - mr_mitm 1y ago
    Thanks, I know. At which point in this comment chain were we discussing the president of Spain though? Buxato stated they didn't hear "anybody", not "anybody in Spain".
  - ignoramous 1y ago
    Not yet... did lose in Canada though.
ta1243 1y ago
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/f4476083e9854ba3 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/f4476083e9854ba3 Richard Tice, the Reform party’s deputy leader and energy spokesman, said the events in Spain should be a warning to Britain and showed the risks of net zero. He said: “We need to know the exact causes but this should be seen as a wake-up call to the eco-zealots. “Power grids need to operate within tight parameters to remain stable. Wind and solar outputs by contrast, vary hugely over long and short periods so they add risk to the system. The UK’s grid operators and our Government should take heed.” That's the same Richard Tice that blamed a substation fire on Net Zero and wants to tax renewable power to subsidise non-renewables. A roundup of people jumping to conclusions is at https://reneweconomy.com.au/spains-blackout-has-already-triggered-a-firestorm-of-disinformation/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/spains-blackout-has-already-trig... > The core priority of grid services right now is getting power restored, rather than establishing the narrow chain of causal events, which will take weeks or likely months. That will be more than enough time for the narrative to be set in stone; immune to whatever reality emerges from careful investigation.