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> traditional "keep learning all the different grammar combinations first" approach That's not better than Duolingo, no. Duolingo is OK initially (especially

> traditional "keep learning all the different grammar combinations first" approach That's not better than Duolingo, no. Duolingo is OK initially (especially if you need to learn a new alphabet), but then quickly move on to * https://www.languagetransfer.org/ https://www.languagetransfer.org/ (will give you a good understanding of the principles of the language but without feeling like a grammar book) * https://www.pimsleur.com/ https://www.pimsleur.com/ or similar audio courses (expensive, but thorough, seem to be informed by spaced repetition principles, I remember what I learn here) * and when you've got the basics down, slow speaking podcasts or youtube which will increase your vocab and understanding greatly * lots of youtube/netflix (use https://addons.mozilla.org/fy-NL/firefox/addon/youtube-dual-subtitles/ https://addons.mozilla.org/fy-NL/firefox/addon/youtube-dual-... or one of the many addons that give more control over subtitles, eventually only foreign subtitles or none) * simple translated stories (I don't know what these are called, but you'll typically have first a story with translations interspersed, then the full story without any guide). https://www.lingq.com/en/ https://www.lingq.com/en/ is a site that does this for you, though I guess you can use llm's this way too now You want lots of input. You also want some deliberate practice making sentences, though in smaller portions than the input.

joshvm 1y ago
Translated stories are sometimes called Graded Readers, you can buy them aligned with most common language levels (CEFR, JLPT, etc) Subtitles though, tricky. The sites that sync with Netflix are probably better than whatever Netflix offers, or whatever you can get that comes with your video files. Subtitles for entertainment are often abbreviated, which is fine for your native language, but it doesn't help if you want to look up a sentence. You need the crowdsourced ones. YouTube can be better in this regard, especially if they're automatically generated. There are also lists of video games floating around that rank games based on the availability of a script, replayable dialogue, that sort of thing. See Game Gengo for a Japanese example [1] (great channel, he also does lessons with all the vocab + grammar in context using games). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXICXCSIfrQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXICXCSIfrQ
ljm 1y ago
I've used Pimsleur on and off for a while and it's great, because even with sporadic usage I can still more or less remember what I learned and most of the time I just need a bit of a refresher in terms of using the right case or conjugation so I don't get I/you/they/it mixed up. Hours into Duolingo I'm repeating total nonsense like "the man is a boy" and "the turtle has green pants," but with Pimsleur, after the same amount of time, it's right into practical stuff like "I would like something to eat" or "I don't understand X but I do speak Y." Having an extensive vocabulary of random words isn't particulary helpful except to extrapolate meaning out of conversations you don't fully understand, and almost certainly cannot contribute to.
- skydhash 1y ago
  You need very little grammar in the first place. And if you learned your native one, it becomes easier to just store the difference (leaks may still happen). Coherent input where previous words are repeated while you learned new one are best (watch subtitled movies, and you can pick a lot if you’re focused on that).
  - ghaff 1y ago
    Probably especially with a related language. I remember high school French (vaguely) abd it was probably a pretty good 4 years of high school French. But I also remember memorizing a ton of complex tenses and the like, many of which I probably rarely use in English, couldn't name, and would probably be hard for a lot of people to parse if I did, especially conversationally and mixed with negation.
    - skydhash 1y ago
      Yep, French has a lot of rules! But they are grammar rules only. So while rote memorization is hard, a good tutor can hel you with the basic understanding. At the end of the day, it’s just practice. With english, you have to practice spelling and pronunciation, with French you have to practice grammar.
- vel0city 1y ago
vindarel 1y ago
A big shootout and kuddos to Language Transfer. I love their method (since I loved Michel Thomas, we see the influence). "Don't try to remember, don't do homework, but repeat with the two other students. It is of our responsibility [the teacher] to make you understand the language. What you know, you don't forget" (para-phrasing) And it works (for me© and surely for more software engineers). https://www.michelthomas.com/ https://www.michelthomas.com/
vitro 1y ago
Adding one more: * https://www.latudio.com/ https://www.latudio.com/ - listening first approach, pause and show sentence if you don't understand, practice words you didn't get later, 4 types of exercises, scripted conversations being one of them And a possibility of a one-time purchase. Disclaimer: I'm a co-founder

joshvm 1y ago

Translated stories are sometimes called Graded Readers, you can buy them aligned with most common language levels (CEFR, JLPT, etc) Subtitles though, tricky. The sites that sync with Netflix are probably better than whatever Netflix offers, or whatever you can get that comes with your video files. Subtitles for entertainment are often abbreviated, which is fine for your native language, but it doesn't help if you want to look up a sentence. You need the crowdsourced ones. YouTube can be better in this regard, especially if they're automatically generated. There are also lists of video games floating around that rank games based on the availability of a script, replayable dialogue, that sort of thing. See Game Gengo for a Japanese example [1] (great channel, he also does lessons with all the vocab + grammar in context using games). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXICXCSIfrQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXICXCSIfrQ

ljm 1y ago

I've used Pimsleur on and off for a while and it's great, because even with sporadic usage I can still more or less remember what I learned and most of the time I just need a bit of a refresher in terms of using the right case or conjugation so I don't get I/you/they/it mixed up. Hours into Duolingo I'm repeating total nonsense like "the man is a boy" and "the turtle has green pants," but with Pimsleur, after the same amount of time, it's right into practical stuff like "I would like something to eat" or "I don't understand X but I do speak Y." Having an extensive vocabulary of random words isn't particulary helpful except to extrapolate meaning out of conversations you don't fully understand, and almost certainly cannot contribute to.

skydhash 1y ago
You need very little grammar in the first place. And if you learned your native one, it becomes easier to just store the difference (leaks may still happen). Coherent input where previous words are repeated while you learned new one are best (watch subtitled movies, and you can pick a lot if you’re focused on that).
- ghaff 1y ago
  Probably especially with a related language. I remember high school French (vaguely) abd it was probably a pretty good 4 years of high school French. But I also remember memorizing a ton of complex tenses and the like, many of which I probably rarely use in English, couldn't name, and would probably be hard for a lot of people to parse if I did, especially conversationally and mixed with negation.
  - skydhash 1y ago
    Yep, French has a lot of rules! But they are grammar rules only. So while rote memorization is hard, a good tutor can hel you with the basic understanding. At the end of the day, it’s just practice. With english, you have to practice spelling and pronunciation, with French you have to practice grammar.
vel0city 1y ago

vindarel 1y ago

A big shootout and kuddos to Language Transfer. I love their method (since I loved Michel Thomas, we see the influence). "Don't try to remember, don't do homework, but repeat with the two other students. It is of our responsibility [the teacher] to make you understand the language. What you know, you don't forget" (para-phrasing) And it works (for me© and surely for more software engineers). https://www.michelthomas.com/ https://www.michelthomas.com/

vitro 1y ago

Adding one more: * https://www.latudio.com/ https://www.latudio.com/ - listening first approach, pause and show sentence if you don't understand, practice words you didn't get later, 4 types of exercises, scripted conversations being one of them And a possibility of a one-time purchase. Disclaimer: I'm a co-founder