5 ms·

Can you please share the problem?

stavros 1y ago
I don't really want it added to the training set, but eh. Here you go: > Assume I have a 3D printer that's currently printing, and I pause the print. What expends more energy, keeping the hotend at some temperature above room temperature and heating it up the rest of the way when I want to use it, or turning it completely off and then heat it all the way when I need it? Is there an amount of time beyond which the answer varies? All LLMs I've tried get it wrong because they assume that the hotend cools immediately when stopping the heating, but realize this when asked about it. Qwen didn't realize it, and gave the answer that 30 minutes of heating the hotend is better than turning it off and back on when needed.
- bufferoverflow 1y ago
  What kind of answer do you expect? It all depends on the hotend shape and material, temperature differences, how fast air moves in the room, humidity of the air, etc.
  - sampo 1y ago
    > It all depends on No it doesn't.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - dtech 1y ago
    Keeping something above room temperature will always use more energy than letting it cool down and heating it back up when needed
  - claiir 1y ago
    Sounds like the LLM you used when writing this slop comment struggled with the problem too. :>
- pylotlight 1y ago
  Some calculation around heat loss and required heat expenditure to reheat per material or something?
  - stavros 1y ago
    Yep, except they calculate heat loss and required energy to keep heating, but room temperature and energy required to heat from that in the other case, so they wildly overestimate one side of the problem.
  - bcoates 1y ago
    Unless I'm missing something holding it hot is pure waste.
    - markisus 1y ago
      Maybe it will help to have a fluid analogy. You have a leaky bucket. What wastes more water, letting all the water leak out and then refilling it from scratch, or keeping it topped up? The answer depends on how bad the leak is vs how long you are required to maintain the bucket level. At least that’s how I interpret this puzzle.
      - Torkel 1y ago
        Does it depend though? The water (heat) leaking out is what you need to add back. As water level drops (hotend cools) the leaking will slow. So any replenishing means more leakage then you are eventually paying for by adding more water (heat) in.
        markisus 1y ago
        You can stipulate conditions to make the solution work out in either direction. Suppose the bucket is the size of lake, and the leak is so miniscule that it takes many centuries to detect any loss. And also I need to keep the bucket full for a microsecond. In this case it is better to keep the bucket full, than to let it drain. Now suppose the bucket is made out of chain-link and any water you put into it immediately falls out. The level is simply the amount of water that happens to be passing through at that moment. And also the next time I need the bucket full is after one century. Well in that case, it would be wasteful to be dumping water through this bucket for a century.
- yishanchuan 1y ago
  don't worry, it is really trickly for training
- andrewmcwatters 1y ago
  Ah! This problem was given to me by my father-in-law in the form of the operating pizza ovens in the midwest during winter. It's a neat, practical one.
- oscord 1y ago
  Qwen3-32b did it pretty accurately it seems. Calculated heat loss over time going to ambient temp, offered to keep it at standby 100C for short breaks under 10 minutes. Shut down completely for longer breaks.
  - stavros 1y ago
    The correct answer is that it's always better to turn it off, though.
    - Filligree 1y ago
      Unless you care about warmup time. LLMs have a habit of throwing in common-sense assumptions that you didn’t tell it to, so you have to be careful of that. It’s not a bug. Outside of logic puzzles that’s a very good thing.
      - stavros 1y ago
        No, warmup time doesn't change anything, I can simply factor it in. It is a bug, because I asked it precisely what I wanted, and it gave the wrong answer. It didn't say anything about warmup time, it was just wrong.

I don't really want it added to the training set, but eh. Here you go: > Assume I have a 3D printer that's currently printing, and I pause the print. What expends more energy, keeping the hotend at some temperature above room temperature and heating it up the rest of the way when I want to use it, or turning it completely off and then heat it all the way when I need it? Is there an amount of time beyond which the answer varies? All LLMs I've tried get it wrong because they assume that the hotend cools immediately when stopping the heating, but realize this when asked about it. Qwen didn't realize it, and gave the answer that 30 minutes of heating the hotend is better than turning it off and back on when needed.

bufferoverflow 1y ago
What kind of answer do you expect? It all depends on the hotend shape and material, temperature differences, how fast air moves in the room, humidity of the air, etc.
- sampo 1y ago
  > It all depends on No it doesn't.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- dtech 1y ago
  Keeping something above room temperature will always use more energy than letting it cool down and heating it back up when needed
- claiir 1y ago
  Sounds like the LLM you used when writing this slop comment struggled with the problem too. :>
pylotlight 1y ago
Some calculation around heat loss and required heat expenditure to reheat per material or something?
- stavros 1y ago
  Yep, except they calculate heat loss and required energy to keep heating, but room temperature and energy required to heat from that in the other case, so they wildly overestimate one side of the problem.
- bcoates 1y ago
  Unless I'm missing something holding it hot is pure waste.
  - markisus 1y ago
    Maybe it will help to have a fluid analogy. You have a leaky bucket. What wastes more water, letting all the water leak out and then refilling it from scratch, or keeping it topped up? The answer depends on how bad the leak is vs how long you are required to maintain the bucket level. At least that’s how I interpret this puzzle.
    - Torkel 1y ago
      Does it depend though? The water (heat) leaking out is what you need to add back. As water level drops (hotend cools) the leaking will slow. So any replenishing means more leakage then you are eventually paying for by adding more water (heat) in.
      - markisus 1y ago
        You can stipulate conditions to make the solution work out in either direction. Suppose the bucket is the size of lake, and the leak is so miniscule that it takes many centuries to detect any loss. And also I need to keep the bucket full for a microsecond. In this case it is better to keep the bucket full, than to let it drain. Now suppose the bucket is made out of chain-link and any water you put into it immediately falls out. The level is simply the amount of water that happens to be passing through at that moment. And also the next time I need the bucket full is after one century. Well in that case, it would be wasteful to be dumping water through this bucket for a century.
yishanchuan 1y ago
don't worry, it is really trickly for training
andrewmcwatters 1y ago
Ah! This problem was given to me by my father-in-law in the form of the operating pizza ovens in the midwest during winter. It's a neat, practical one.
oscord 1y ago
Qwen3-32b did it pretty accurately it seems. Calculated heat loss over time going to ambient temp, offered to keep it at standby 100C for short breaks under 10 minutes. Shut down completely for longer breaks.
- stavros 1y ago
  The correct answer is that it's always better to turn it off, though.
  - Filligree 1y ago
    Unless you care about warmup time. LLMs have a habit of throwing in common-sense assumptions that you didn’t tell it to, so you have to be careful of that. It’s not a bug. Outside of logic puzzles that’s a very good thing.
    - stavros 1y ago
      No, warmup time doesn't change anything, I can simply factor it in. It is a bug, because I asked it precisely what I wanted, and it gave the wrong answer. It didn't say anything about warmup time, it was just wrong.