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I am done with all of you so-called "hands-on people" who don't give people real tools to use. The XO (One Laptop Per Child) and now this. Please stop giving

I am done with all of you so-called "hands-on people" who don't give people real tools to use. The XO (One Laptop Per Child) and now this. Please stop giving people tinker-toy environments with tinker-toy problems that have nothing to do with the real world. If someone's not motivated to learn, yes, they may need this kind of hand-holding. But if someone genuinely wants to learn to program computers for a living, this is - in my opinion - not what they need at all. Drivers Education is taught in a real car, not in Mario Kart on a Wii. I'm sick of the Mario Kart version of computers being spoon-fed to otherwise intelligent people as though it has anything to do with reality. I learned to program using Turbo Pascal. I was not so far removed from reality that everything I learned was almost completely useless. I have not given this much attention yet, but so far, it feels completely useless. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

VikingCoder 14y ago
"Reducing the complexity of getting started down to zero will result in more people learning." Yes, but you're removing NECESSARY complexity, in order for them to learn something barely worth learning. "I feel that purely textual coding environments (or coding environments that favor textual output over visual output) serve as a highly uninteresting introduction to programming." There are people who get to use non-textual coding environments, and there are people who get to work with very visual outputs. I feel that by giving them these tools, you've castrated their ability to understand anything meaningful. "Obviously, right now we’re not teaching very much in the way of traditional Computer Science content," Yeah, approximately none of it. "We decided that it was much more fruitful for us to tackle the most challenging problem that exists with Computer Science education first: Getting people excited about programming." Of the people who are AT ALL interested in learning about programming, I have encountered exactly zero of them who aren't already excited about it. Why do you think that GETTING them excited is the "most challenging problem"? I absolutely applaud the effort, and I sincerely wish you success. I just personally think you're doing it all wrong.
- yusefnapora 14y ago
  > Of the people who are AT ALL interested in learning about programming, I have encountered exactly zero of them who aren't already excited about it. How is this tautology at all helpful? Of course the people who are excited about programming are excited about it. For every one of those, how many view computers as entertaining magic boxes? Most non-programmers I know regard programming as a kind of impenetrable dark art. There is such a monumental disconnect between "Hello World" and "I can do whatever I want!" that most people just assume that they'll never be able to achieve any meaningful result. Being able to create something visually interesting that you can share with your friends is a big motivator, and I think you're too quick to deride it. Also, I don't get why you view this as something "barely worth learning." The "real world" doesn't run on Turbo Pascal anymore, and Javascript, like it or not, is a big part of modern programming. Do you really think it will be so difficult to translate skills acquired generating interesting games into skills that can be used in a modern web shop? Anyway, you're welcome to your opinion, I just personally don't understand it. Luckily for people that share your opinion, there are plenty of traditional CS resources all over the web and elsewhere to learn programming in the "real world." For those whose "real world" consists of playing games and wondering how they work, this might just be the thing that motivates them to look under the hood.
  - VikingCoder 14y ago
    You call it a tautology, but my point is that Resig claims that "the most challenging problem that exists with Computer Science education" is "Getting people excited about programming." I do not think that is the most challenging problem that exists with Computer Science education. He doesn't just claim that it's a problem with Computer Science education. I agree that it's a problem, and I value tools that try to help. No, he's claiming it's "the most challenging problem." I strenuously disagree. I think the most challenging problem with Computer Science education is retention. I know a bunch of people, personally, who for whatever reasons, got excited about programming - they wanted to learn. They had their own intrinsic excitement for programming, and wanted to move forward. A few things hindered them, in my opinion: they had no idea how to get started, and even if they did get started, they soon lost interest because it wasn't obvious to them how the tools they had access to were ever going to get them anywhere they wanted to go. Given a goal - say, how do I make a game? - they did not believe there was a finish line they could cross. I can accept the criticism that I'm too quick to deride it. I'm sure this is a valuable tool for some people. Given the people that I know, who already were motivated, I do not believe this tool will help them at all, and that disappoints me because I had hoped for more. I think it's barely worth learning because I know hundreds of professional software developers, and I know approximately two of them who got to play with HTML5 Canvas at work - myself and a friend at another company. Both of us did it in our spare time, for fun, because our bosses would never have asked us to do it. If you know more people who are professional HTML5 Canvas developers, then your anecdote trumps mine.
dudey 14y ago
PSA: Don't feed the troll.
- VikingCoder 14y ago
  "I absolutely applaud the effort, and I sincerely wish you success." I wish all trolls applauded effort and wished people success. I may not be expressing it well, but I honestly think calling this "Computer Science" is absurd. Feel free to call people who disagree with you a troll any time it's more convenient than actually having a conversation with them. I wish we could discuss the wild success of One Laptop Per Child, which tried a similar approach. But we can't. And I personally believe it's because of this "tinker-toy hand's on" approach that One Laptop Per Child has failed so spectacularly. I fear that this approach will shove Khan Academy's "Computer Science" section into a similar footnote of history. I also think all of this is too important to do wrong, so it pisses me off to see a group so prominent make such a misstep.
  - rhc2104 14y ago
    I should point out that Harvard teaches programming in Scratch for the first 2 weeks of their introductory CS course. http://scratched.media.mit.edu/resources/harvard-cs50-introduction-programming-and-scratch http://scratched.media.mit.edu/resources/harvard-cs50-introd... According to slide 27, most students prefer it that way: http://cs.harvard.edu/malan/publications/Scratch@MIT.pdf http://cs.harvard.edu/malan/publications/Scratch@MIT.pdf
lukego 14y ago
Sounds like you'd love the Forth environment built into the OLPC firmware.

VikingCoder 14y ago

"Reducing the complexity of getting started down to zero will result in more people learning." Yes, but you're removing NECESSARY complexity, in order for them to learn something barely worth learning. "I feel that purely textual coding environments (or coding environments that favor textual output over visual output) serve as a highly uninteresting introduction to programming." There are people who get to use non-textual coding environments, and there are people who get to work with very visual outputs. I feel that by giving them these tools, you've castrated their ability to understand anything meaningful. "Obviously, right now we’re not teaching very much in the way of traditional Computer Science content," Yeah, approximately none of it. "We decided that it was much more fruitful for us to tackle the most challenging problem that exists with Computer Science education first: Getting people excited about programming." Of the people who are AT ALL interested in learning about programming, I have encountered exactly zero of them who aren't already excited about it. Why do you think that GETTING them excited is the "most challenging problem"? I absolutely applaud the effort, and I sincerely wish you success. I just personally think you're doing it all wrong.

yusefnapora 14y ago
> Of the people who are AT ALL interested in learning about programming, I have encountered exactly zero of them who aren't already excited about it. How is this tautology at all helpful? Of course the people who are excited about programming are excited about it. For every one of those, how many view computers as entertaining magic boxes? Most non-programmers I know regard programming as a kind of impenetrable dark art. There is such a monumental disconnect between "Hello World" and "I can do whatever I want!" that most people just assume that they'll never be able to achieve any meaningful result. Being able to create something visually interesting that you can share with your friends is a big motivator, and I think you're too quick to deride it. Also, I don't get why you view this as something "barely worth learning." The "real world" doesn't run on Turbo Pascal anymore, and Javascript, like it or not, is a big part of modern programming. Do you really think it will be so difficult to translate skills acquired generating interesting games into skills that can be used in a modern web shop? Anyway, you're welcome to your opinion, I just personally don't understand it. Luckily for people that share your opinion, there are plenty of traditional CS resources all over the web and elsewhere to learn programming in the "real world." For those whose "real world" consists of playing games and wondering how they work, this might just be the thing that motivates them to look under the hood.
- VikingCoder 14y ago
  You call it a tautology, but my point is that Resig claims that "the most challenging problem that exists with Computer Science education" is "Getting people excited about programming." I do not think that is the most challenging problem that exists with Computer Science education. He doesn't just claim that it's a problem with Computer Science education. I agree that it's a problem, and I value tools that try to help. No, he's claiming it's "the most challenging problem." I strenuously disagree. I think the most challenging problem with Computer Science education is retention. I know a bunch of people, personally, who for whatever reasons, got excited about programming - they wanted to learn. They had their own intrinsic excitement for programming, and wanted to move forward. A few things hindered them, in my opinion: they had no idea how to get started, and even if they did get started, they soon lost interest because it wasn't obvious to them how the tools they had access to were ever going to get them anywhere they wanted to go. Given a goal - say, how do I make a game? - they did not believe there was a finish line they could cross. I can accept the criticism that I'm too quick to deride it. I'm sure this is a valuable tool for some people. Given the people that I know, who already were motivated, I do not believe this tool will help them at all, and that disappoints me because I had hoped for more. I think it's barely worth learning because I know hundreds of professional software developers, and I know approximately two of them who got to play with HTML5 Canvas at work - myself and a friend at another company. Both of us did it in our spare time, for fun, because our bosses would never have asked us to do it. If you know more people who are professional HTML5 Canvas developers, then your anecdote trumps mine.

dudey 14y ago

PSA: Don't feed the troll.

VikingCoder 14y ago
"I absolutely applaud the effort, and I sincerely wish you success." I wish all trolls applauded effort and wished people success. I may not be expressing it well, but I honestly think calling this "Computer Science" is absurd. Feel free to call people who disagree with you a troll any time it's more convenient than actually having a conversation with them. I wish we could discuss the wild success of One Laptop Per Child, which tried a similar approach. But we can't. And I personally believe it's because of this "tinker-toy hand's on" approach that One Laptop Per Child has failed so spectacularly. I fear that this approach will shove Khan Academy's "Computer Science" section into a similar footnote of history. I also think all of this is too important to do wrong, so it pisses me off to see a group so prominent make such a misstep.
- rhc2104 14y ago
  I should point out that Harvard teaches programming in Scratch for the first 2 weeks of their introductory CS course. http://scratched.media.mit.edu/resources/harvard-cs50-introduction-programming-and-scratch http://scratched.media.mit.edu/resources/harvard-cs50-introd... According to slide 27, most students prefer it that way: http://cs.harvard.edu/malan/publications/Scratch@MIT.pdf http://cs.harvard.edu/malan/publications/Scratch@MIT.pdf

lukego 14y ago

Sounds like you'd love the Forth environment built into the OLPC firmware.