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Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). High speed rail requires that you to avoi

Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). High speed rail requires that you to avoid unnecessary curves. At that point, you're going to have to start using imminent domain. Putting it off until after you have billions of dollars in sunk costs in the Central Valley doesn't change that.

gruez 2y ago
>Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). High speed rail requires that you to avoid unnecessary curves. why can't you have it run slowly in built up areas? As another commenter mentioned that's how it works in France.
- GeekyBear 2y ago
  Because competing with the airlines requires some semblance of "high speed"? California is fairly densely packed once you get away from the Central Valley and nearer to the coast where the people are.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    The current plan actually accounts for this; the 2:40 includes the amount of time it takes to run on the current Caltrain tracks from San Jose to SF which will not be running at the highest speeds.
    - vlovich123 2y ago
      Said another way, that SF/San Jose stretch accounts for 25-30% of the total time. That’s similarly true for the last stretch of LA meaning a truly engineering driven design could have done it within ~1h50. And note that the 2h40 goal is admitted as a pipe dream by everyone involved, particularly because of the last mile issues and the circuitous route.
      - bobthepanda 2y ago
        IIRC the last stretch in LA is actually planned to be new build with Palmdale to Los Angeles taking about twenty minutes. Engineering is about optimizing and updating where you can. There aren't really high speed rail lines anywhere that go into the center of their major cities at full speed. In Europe and Japan the city-center sections are slower; China solved this problem mostly by having high speed trains skirt around built up areas.
        vlovich123 2y ago
        > China solved this problem mostly by having high speed trains skirt around built up areas. Which is what we should have done. Follow the 5 and build out high speed spokes to the other cities. And really unfuck the rail system in the Bay Area instead of travelling at Caltrain speeds for San Jose -> SF.
        bobthepanda 2y ago
        China would have likely just stopped the rail line at San Jose, the same way the Shanghai HSR stops at Hongqiao 50 minutes away from the actual city center.
        inferiorhuman 2y ago
        Upgraded signaling along the Caltrain ROW is in the works, but again you've got to balance the egos of the three big stakeholders. Caltrain is a far smaller problem to CAHSR than e..g Metro North is to Acela. The big issue is going to be the approach to downtown SF — which is still a ridiculous political football.
        vlovich123 2y ago
        Something something something “solve the hard problems first”.
        dragonwriter 2y ago
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    Yeah, I don't think people in LA or SF are worried about competing with airlines over a few dozen city miles not being 200+ mph. Avoiding the LAX is reward in and of itself.
  - ta1243 2y ago
    Americans tell me that public transport can't work in the America because it's not dense enough.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    Most of the run for CA HSR is in the Central Valley because most of the length of California between the Bay and LA is.
fwip 2y ago
*eminent domain, from a Latin-ish phrase "dominium eminens."
slt2021 2y ago
the state can manage that expense over time, for example by refusing to enforce laws, spiking crime rates, turning into dystopia and chaos, thus lowering property values. after land is acquired, the property and law enforcement will bring up values
- gruez 2y ago
  /s?
nostrademons 2y ago
That's why they went with the blended system with Caltrain. Caltrain already owns a suitable right-of-way; they just needed to electrify it. Which they've already done. The SF-to-SJ part of CAHSR is effectively done; they just need to built acquire the SJ-to-Gilroy right of way and tunnel under the Pacheco Pass to connect with the rest of CAHSR.
dragonwriter 2y ago
> Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). The SJ to SF run is on existing rail right of way. > At that point, you're going to have to start using imminent domain. They’ve been using eminent domain the whole time, they aren't going to have to start at some point in the future.

gruez 2y ago

>Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). High speed rail requires that you to avoid unnecessary curves. why can't you have it run slowly in built up areas? As another commenter mentioned that's how it works in France.

GeekyBear 2y ago
Because competing with the airlines requires some semblance of "high speed"? California is fairly densely packed once you get away from the Central Valley and nearer to the coast where the people are.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  The current plan actually accounts for this; the 2:40 includes the amount of time it takes to run on the current Caltrain tracks from San Jose to SF which will not be running at the highest speeds.
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    Said another way, that SF/San Jose stretch accounts for 25-30% of the total time. That’s similarly true for the last stretch of LA meaning a truly engineering driven design could have done it within ~1h50. And note that the 2h40 goal is admitted as a pipe dream by everyone involved, particularly because of the last mile issues and the circuitous route.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      IIRC the last stretch in LA is actually planned to be new build with Palmdale to Los Angeles taking about twenty minutes. Engineering is about optimizing and updating where you can. There aren't really high speed rail lines anywhere that go into the center of their major cities at full speed. In Europe and Japan the city-center sections are slower; China solved this problem mostly by having high speed trains skirt around built up areas.
      - vlovich123 2y ago
        > China solved this problem mostly by having high speed trains skirt around built up areas. Which is what we should have done. Follow the 5 and build out high speed spokes to the other cities. And really unfuck the rail system in the Bay Area instead of travelling at Caltrain speeds for San Jose -> SF.
        bobthepanda 2y ago
        China would have likely just stopped the rail line at San Jose, the same way the Shanghai HSR stops at Hongqiao 50 minutes away from the actual city center.
        inferiorhuman 2y ago
        Upgraded signaling along the Caltrain ROW is in the works, but again you've got to balance the egos of the three big stakeholders. Caltrain is a far smaller problem to CAHSR than e..g Metro North is to Acela. The big issue is going to be the approach to downtown SF — which is still a ridiculous political football.
        vlovich123 2y ago
        Something something something “solve the hard problems first”.
        dragonwriter 2y ago
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  Yeah, I don't think people in LA or SF are worried about competing with airlines over a few dozen city miles not being 200+ mph. Avoiding the LAX is reward in and of itself.
- ta1243 2y ago
  Americans tell me that public transport can't work in the America because it's not dense enough.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  Most of the run for CA HSR is in the Central Valley because most of the length of California between the Bay and LA is.

fwip 2y ago

*eminent domain, from a Latin-ish phrase "dominium eminens."

slt2021 2y ago

the state can manage that expense over time, for example by refusing to enforce laws, spiking crime rates, turning into dystopia and chaos, thus lowering property values. after land is acquired, the property and law enforcement will bring up values

gruez 2y ago
/s?

nostrademons 2y ago

That's why they went with the blended system with Caltrain. Caltrain already owns a suitable right-of-way; they just needed to electrify it. Which they've already done. The SF-to-SJ part of CAHSR is effectively done; they just need to built acquire the SJ-to-Gilroy right of way and tunnel under the Pacheco Pass to connect with the rest of CAHSR.

dragonwriter 2y ago

> Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). The SJ to SF run is on existing rail right of way. > At that point, you're going to have to start using imminent domain. They’ve been using eminent domain the whole time, they aren't going to have to start at some point in the future.