4 ms·

"... which kinda kills the purpose of HSR connecting SF to central valley towns to LA ..." Yes, that's exactly right. The original - and highest value - purpo

by rsync 1y ago

"... which kinda kills the purpose of HSR connecting SF to central valley towns to LA ..." Yes, that's exactly right. The original - and highest value - purpose was a high speed rail route between SF and LA. The meandering route through Fresno (and the new, ex post facto "purpose" the article refers to) is the result of political machinations that happened after the fact and traded utility for brief, local (and trivial) political gains.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
The route through Fresno is only 50 km longer than the I-5 route. It's a difference of 7% in total length. Going through the two biggest cities in the Central Valley is worth a 7% increase in track length.
- andbberger 1y ago
  the opportunity cost isn't a 7% increase in length, it's the tens of billions in extra infrastructure to build 350km/h right of way straight through the middle of every town all the way down the central valley, and the massive hit to SF-LA run time that will come with that. beyond the stop penalty, HSR just doesn't run at full speed through city centers anywhere in the world. doesn't happen.
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    As I wrote elsewhere, the average speed of CA HSR (as planned) is 250 km/h, which is very competitive, internationally. It's about as fast as the fastest French TGV routes. It only really lags behind the fastest Chinese routes, which run at average speeds of about 290 km/h. If CA HSR can go through the cities in the Central Valley and still achieve an average speed of 250 km/h, that's well worth it.
  - slt2021 1y ago
    people who need to get from SF to LA as soon as possible are already served by the airplanes. Your business class traveler from LA/orange county to SF bay is already well served by the many airports in both metro areas. the HSR is about connecting the rest of the state to economic opportunities in these large metro areas
    - steveBK123 1y ago
      SF-LA ~380mi is actually a real sweet spot for HSR. Flight time of 90 minutes but the hassle of getting out to airport, check-in, boarding.. and then the opposite on the other end makes your all-in travel time about 4~5 hours. With HSR you are generally going city center to city center, and 380mi is achievable in 2~2.5 hours all-in. I took a 700mi HSR in Japan that was probably on the very far end of being competitive time wise with flying and was still great. 5hr train vs 2hr plane segment, but all-in door-to-door travel times were comparable (5h45m vs 5hr). Train 5hr45m door to door with majority of time sat in a comfy quiet train with big comfy seats and high speed internet. A flight which is 5hr door to door is mostly a ton of hurry-up-and-wait with small blocks of 30-90min here or there you can read a book.
    - ta1243 1y ago
      If you want HSR you'd have at most one stop between LA and SF. If you're going to stop throughout the rest of the state you just want normal rail running at 100-120mph.
  - huhcat 1y ago
    > HSR just doesn't run at full speed through city centers anywhere in the world. doesn't happen. Wrong. It's most definitely a thing in quite a few mid-sized Japanese cities. Here's a compilation video taken at Fukushima Station (https://youtu.be/K-wkX3vFU_A?t=403 https://youtu.be/K-wkX3vFU_A?t=403) on the fastest 320 km/h line for example. You can check for yourself that the station is dead smack downtown in a city of 275,000. At the world level it doesn't tend to happen because existing developments in cities usually strongly inhibit the construction of straight rail alignments that can support high-speed operations. But that's not a problem in the Central Valley – they're blessed with excellent existing rights-of-way.
- nostrademons 1y ago
  It’s also less than that in travel time, since CAHSR goes at its full 350 km/h on the Central Valley vs just 130 km/h on the Caltrain corridor from SF to Gilroy. It adds about 10 minutes to non-stop travel time. The real benefit is opening the Central Valley to commuter development. San Jose to Madeira on CAHSR is around 45 minutes, not much more than commuting from Palo Alto with current traffic on 101, and so it’d open vast tracts of land in the Central Valley to housing. It might actually be practical to work in the Bay Area on something non-tech, live in a SFH, and commute less than an hour again.
  - andbberger 1y ago
    CAHSR is almost certain to not be priced competitively for commuting. it is far more valuable to have that seat full all the way to LA. OTOH had altamont been selected, it would have been extremely useful for commuting from sacramento to the bay (branch line, no seats to displace)
    - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
      This really depends on how it ends up being priced. In Germany, you can pay for a year-long high-speed rail all-you-can-ride pass. It costs just under 5000 Euros, which is very reasonable if you're using it every workday. This is a bit like AWS pricing. If you book an entire year of usage up-front, you get a much lower price. Casual users pay much more per use.
    - nostrademons 1y ago
      They are running multiple trains. SF to LA non-stop trains won't even stop at stations like Gilroy or Madeira. The all-stop trains will preference commute hours. The seats are non-rivalrous: Central Valley commuters aren't even going to be on the same train as a SF to LA business traveler. It seems reasonable that fares would differ, and that traveling just 1-2 stops from SJ to the Central Valley will be a lot cheaper than going from SF to LA. https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/2024-BP-Service-Planning-Methodology-V06-Final-A11Y.pdf https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/2024-BP-Servic...
  - 1y ago
slt2021 1y ago
there is no need to connect SF to LA only, there are many airports in each town that connect these large metro areas. the purpose of HSR is to transform large swatchs of land into a large megalopolis, like in China. China's HSR connects large metro areas into one giant megalopolis with up to 250+ mln population that totally changes the ballgame in terms of economic output https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalopolises_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalopolises_in_China
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  You never been to LAX if you don't immediately act with a sigh of relief over a direct train route. It's an potential 90 minute+ commute and another 90 minute TSA process for a 90 minute flight. Dreadful. >The purpose of HSR is to transform large swatchs of land into a large megalopolis, like in China. Bakersfield has a dozen reasons ever preventing it from becoming another SF/LA/SD. Besides, China didn't build its rail all at once. A direct route would prove value when making future splinter routes. Instead, we chase 2 rabbits and get none.
  - Karrot_Kream 1y ago
    FWIW at least the LAX Automated People Mover will be opening up next year and you can avoid the hell on Earth that is driving in/out of LAX.
    - johnnyanmac 1y ago
      That will be a relief. Though if I may rant a bit to a bikeshed: I really hate that thr naming scheme of "people mover" was probably part of the reason this project is coming next year and not 2035. The phrase itself just oozes this sentiment that no one politically involved was allowed to say "train" or "rail" so it doesn't scare off investors.
      - pests 1y ago
        Doesn’t help the Detroit People Mover much sadly. It’s also a train.

by rsync 1y ago

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago

The route through Fresno is only 50 km longer than the I-5 route. It's a difference of 7% in total length. Going through the two biggest cities in the Central Valley is worth a 7% increase in track length.

andbberger 1y ago
the opportunity cost isn't a 7% increase in length, it's the tens of billions in extra infrastructure to build 350km/h right of way straight through the middle of every town all the way down the central valley, and the massive hit to SF-LA run time that will come with that. beyond the stop penalty, HSR just doesn't run at full speed through city centers anywhere in the world. doesn't happen.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  As I wrote elsewhere, the average speed of CA HSR (as planned) is 250 km/h, which is very competitive, internationally. It's about as fast as the fastest French TGV routes. It only really lags behind the fastest Chinese routes, which run at average speeds of about 290 km/h. If CA HSR can go through the cities in the Central Valley and still achieve an average speed of 250 km/h, that's well worth it.
- slt2021 1y ago
  people who need to get from SF to LA as soon as possible are already served by the airplanes. Your business class traveler from LA/orange county to SF bay is already well served by the many airports in both metro areas. the HSR is about connecting the rest of the state to economic opportunities in these large metro areas
  - steveBK123 1y ago
    SF-LA ~380mi is actually a real sweet spot for HSR. Flight time of 90 minutes but the hassle of getting out to airport, check-in, boarding.. and then the opposite on the other end makes your all-in travel time about 4~5 hours. With HSR you are generally going city center to city center, and 380mi is achievable in 2~2.5 hours all-in. I took a 700mi HSR in Japan that was probably on the very far end of being competitive time wise with flying and was still great. 5hr train vs 2hr plane segment, but all-in door-to-door travel times were comparable (5h45m vs 5hr). Train 5hr45m door to door with majority of time sat in a comfy quiet train with big comfy seats and high speed internet. A flight which is 5hr door to door is mostly a ton of hurry-up-and-wait with small blocks of 30-90min here or there you can read a book.
  - ta1243 1y ago
    If you want HSR you'd have at most one stop between LA and SF. If you're going to stop throughout the rest of the state you just want normal rail running at 100-120mph.
- huhcat 1y ago
  > HSR just doesn't run at full speed through city centers anywhere in the world. doesn't happen. Wrong. It's most definitely a thing in quite a few mid-sized Japanese cities. Here's a compilation video taken at Fukushima Station (https://youtu.be/K-wkX3vFU_A?t=403 https://youtu.be/K-wkX3vFU_A?t=403) on the fastest 320 km/h line for example. You can check for yourself that the station is dead smack downtown in a city of 275,000. At the world level it doesn't tend to happen because existing developments in cities usually strongly inhibit the construction of straight rail alignments that can support high-speed operations. But that's not a problem in the Central Valley – they're blessed with excellent existing rights-of-way.
nostrademons 1y ago
It’s also less than that in travel time, since CAHSR goes at its full 350 km/h on the Central Valley vs just 130 km/h on the Caltrain corridor from SF to Gilroy. It adds about 10 minutes to non-stop travel time. The real benefit is opening the Central Valley to commuter development. San Jose to Madeira on CAHSR is around 45 minutes, not much more than commuting from Palo Alto with current traffic on 101, and so it’d open vast tracts of land in the Central Valley to housing. It might actually be practical to work in the Bay Area on something non-tech, live in a SFH, and commute less than an hour again.
- andbberger 1y ago
  CAHSR is almost certain to not be priced competitively for commuting. it is far more valuable to have that seat full all the way to LA. OTOH had altamont been selected, it would have been extremely useful for commuting from sacramento to the bay (branch line, no seats to displace)
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    This really depends on how it ends up being priced. In Germany, you can pay for a year-long high-speed rail all-you-can-ride pass. It costs just under 5000 Euros, which is very reasonable if you're using it every workday. This is a bit like AWS pricing. If you book an entire year of usage up-front, you get a much lower price. Casual users pay much more per use.
  - nostrademons 1y ago
    They are running multiple trains. SF to LA non-stop trains won't even stop at stations like Gilroy or Madeira. The all-stop trains will preference commute hours. The seats are non-rivalrous: Central Valley commuters aren't even going to be on the same train as a SF to LA business traveler. It seems reasonable that fares would differ, and that traveling just 1-2 stops from SJ to the Central Valley will be a lot cheaper than going from SF to LA. https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/2024-BP-Service-Planning-Methodology-V06-Final-A11Y.pdf https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/2024-BP-Servic...
- 1y ago

slt2021 1y ago

there is no need to connect SF to LA only, there are many airports in each town that connect these large metro areas. the purpose of HSR is to transform large swatchs of land into a large megalopolis, like in China. China's HSR connects large metro areas into one giant megalopolis with up to 250+ mln population that totally changes the ballgame in terms of economic output https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalopolises_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalopolises_in_China

johnnyanmac 1y ago
You never been to LAX if you don't immediately act with a sigh of relief over a direct train route. It's an potential 90 minute+ commute and another 90 minute TSA process for a 90 minute flight. Dreadful. >The purpose of HSR is to transform large swatchs of land into a large megalopolis, like in China. Bakersfield has a dozen reasons ever preventing it from becoming another SF/LA/SD. Besides, China didn't build its rail all at once. A direct route would prove value when making future splinter routes. Instead, we chase 2 rabbits and get none.
- Karrot_Kream 1y ago
  FWIW at least the LAX Automated People Mover will be opening up next year and you can avoid the hell on Earth that is driving in/out of LAX.
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    That will be a relief. Though if I may rant a bit to a bikeshed: I really hate that thr naming scheme of "people mover" was probably part of the reason this project is coming next year and not 2035. The phrase itself just oozes this sentiment that no one politically involved was allowed to say "train" or "rail" so it doesn't scare off investors.
    - pests 1y ago
      Doesn’t help the Detroit People Mover much sadly. It’s also a train.