4 ms·

I thunk it boils down to the fact that acquiring land near San Francisco or LA through imminent domain would be both hideously expensive and extremely unpopular

I thunk it boils down to the fact that acquiring land near San Francisco or LA through imminent domain would be both hideously expensive and extremely unpopular. Building "High Speed Rail to nowhere" in the Central Valley allowed them kick that can of political infighting down the road.

gruez 2y ago
>and extremely unpopular Who's shedding a tear for some farmer getting paid above market rates (presumably) for their land? California is probably the last place I'd expect people to think using eminent domain in this case is a slipper slope to communism or whatever.
- GeekyBear 2y ago
  Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). High speed rail requires that you to avoid unnecessary curves. At that point, you're going to have to start using imminent domain. Putting it off until after you have billions of dollars in sunk costs in the Central Valley doesn't change that.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). High speed rail requires that you to avoid unnecessary curves. why can't you have it run slowly in built up areas? As another commenter mentioned that's how it works in France.
    - GeekyBear 2y ago
      Because competing with the airlines requires some semblance of "high speed"? California is fairly densely packed once you get away from the Central Valley and nearer to the coast where the people are.
      - bobthepanda 2y ago
        The current plan actually accounts for this; the 2:40 includes the amount of time it takes to run on the current Caltrain tracks from San Jose to SF which will not be running at the highest speeds.
        vlovich123 2y ago
        Said another way, that SF/San Jose stretch accounts for 25-30% of the total time. That’s similarly true for the last stretch of LA meaning a truly engineering driven design could have done it within ~1h50. And note that the 2h40 goal is admitted as a pipe dream by everyone involved, particularly because of the last mile issues and the circuitous route.
        bobthepanda 2y ago
        IIRC the last stretch in LA is actually planned to be new build with Palmdale to Los Angeles taking about twenty minutes. Engineering is about optimizing and updating where you can. There aren't really high speed rail lines anywhere that go into the center of their major cities at full speed. In Europe and Japan the city-center sections are slower; China solved this problem mostly by having high speed trains skirt around built up areas.
        vlovich123 2y ago
        > China solved this problem mostly by having high speed trains skirt around built up areas. Which is what we should have done. Follow the 5 and build out high speed spokes to the other cities. And really unfuck the rail system in the Bay Area instead of travelling at Caltrain speeds for San Jose -> SF.
        bobthepanda 2y ago
        China would have likely just stopped the rail line at San Jose, the same way the Shanghai HSR stops at Hongqiao 50 minutes away from the actual city center.
  - fwip 2y ago
    *eminent domain, from a Latin-ish phrase "dominium eminens."
  - slt2021 2y ago
    the state can manage that expense over time, for example by refusing to enforce laws, spiking crime rates, turning into dystopia and chaos, thus lowering property values. after land is acquired, the property and law enforcement will bring up values
    - gruez 2y ago
      /s?
  - nostrademons 2y ago
    That's why they went with the blended system with Caltrain. Caltrain already owns a suitable right-of-way; they just needed to electrify it. Which they've already done. The SF-to-SJ part of CAHSR is effectively done; they just need to built acquire the SJ-to-Gilroy right of way and tunnel under the Pacheco Pass to connect with the rest of CAHSR.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). The SJ to SF run is on existing rail right of way. > At that point, you're going to have to start using imminent domain. They’ve been using eminent domain the whole time, they aren't going to have to start at some point in the future.
dragonwriter 2y ago
> I thunk it boils down to the fact that acquiring land near San Francisco or LA through imminent domain would be both hideously expensive and extremely unpopular. “Eminent domain”, and the SF to SJ run for CA HSR uses almost entirely existing rail right-ot-way shared with Caltrain. > Building "High Speed Rail to nowhere" in the Central Valley allowed them kick that can of political infighting down the road. You are right that doing Central Valley first was political, but you have the wrong political motivation. The political motivation was (1) to mitigate partisan political resistance to the project by prividing the most immediate benefit to the Republican districts in the Central Valley, and (2) to secure federal funding under ARRA, which prioritized shovel-ready projects, because the issues that needed cleared to reach an approximation of that state for the termini were more time consuming.

gruez 2y ago

>and extremely unpopular Who's shedding a tear for some farmer getting paid above market rates (presumably) for their land? California is probably the last place I'd expect people to think using eminent domain in this case is a slipper slope to communism or whatever.

GeekyBear 2y ago
Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). High speed rail requires that you to avoid unnecessary curves. At that point, you're going to have to start using imminent domain. Putting it off until after you have billions of dollars in sunk costs in the Central Valley doesn't change that.
- gruez 2y ago
  >Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). High speed rail requires that you to avoid unnecessary curves. why can't you have it run slowly in built up areas? As another commenter mentioned that's how it works in France.
  - GeekyBear 2y ago
    Because competing with the airlines requires some semblance of "high speed"? California is fairly densely packed once you get away from the Central Valley and nearer to the coast where the people are.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      The current plan actually accounts for this; the 2:40 includes the amount of time it takes to run on the current Caltrain tracks from San Jose to SF which will not be running at the highest speeds.
      - vlovich123 2y ago
        Said another way, that SF/San Jose stretch accounts for 25-30% of the total time. That’s similarly true for the last stretch of LA meaning a truly engineering driven design could have done it within ~1h50. And note that the 2h40 goal is admitted as a pipe dream by everyone involved, particularly because of the last mile issues and the circuitous route.
        bobthepanda 2y ago
        IIRC the last stretch in LA is actually planned to be new build with Palmdale to Los Angeles taking about twenty minutes. Engineering is about optimizing and updating where you can. There aren't really high speed rail lines anywhere that go into the center of their major cities at full speed. In Europe and Japan the city-center sections are slower; China solved this problem mostly by having high speed trains skirt around built up areas.
        vlovich123 2y ago
        > China solved this problem mostly by having high speed trains skirt around built up areas. Which is what we should have done. Follow the 5 and build out high speed spokes to the other cities. And really unfuck the rail system in the Bay Area instead of travelling at Caltrain speeds for San Jose -> SF.
        bobthepanda 2y ago
        China would have likely just stopped the rail line at San Jose, the same way the Shanghai HSR stops at Hongqiao 50 minutes away from the actual city center.
- fwip 2y ago
  *eminent domain, from a Latin-ish phrase "dominium eminens."
- slt2021 2y ago
  the state can manage that expense over time, for example by refusing to enforce laws, spiking crime rates, turning into dystopia and chaos, thus lowering property values. after land is acquired, the property and law enforcement will bring up values
  - gruez 2y ago
    /s?
- nostrademons 2y ago
  That's why they went with the blended system with Caltrain. Caltrain already owns a suitable right-of-way; they just needed to electrify it. Which they've already done. The SF-to-SJ part of CAHSR is effectively done; they just need to built acquire the SJ-to-Gilroy right of way and tunnel under the Pacheco Pass to connect with the rest of CAHSR.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). The SJ to SF run is on existing rail right of way. > At that point, you're going to have to start using imminent domain. They’ve been using eminent domain the whole time, they aren't going to have to start at some point in the future.

dragonwriter 2y ago

> I thunk it boils down to the fact that acquiring land near San Francisco or LA through imminent domain would be both hideously expensive and extremely unpopular. “Eminent domain”, and the SF to SJ run for CA HSR uses almost entirely existing rail right-ot-way shared with Caltrain. > Building "High Speed Rail to nowhere" in the Central Valley allowed them kick that can of political infighting down the road. You are right that doing Central Valley first was political, but you have the wrong political motivation. The political motivation was (1) to mitigate partisan political resistance to the project by prividing the most immediate benefit to the Republican districts in the Central Valley, and (2) to secure federal funding under ARRA, which prioritized shovel-ready projects, because the issues that needed cleared to reach an approximation of that state for the termini were more time consuming.