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North Koreans doing the actual work isn’t fraud to me. But I understand your point. Silicon Valley is built by Russian money in VC funds being spent on North K

North Koreans doing the actual work isn’t fraud to me. But I understand your point. Silicon Valley is built by Russian money in VC funds being spent on North Korean employees.

gruez 2y ago
>North Koreans doing the actual work isn’t fraud to me. It's fraud when you misrepresent yourself as not-north korean, just like if a chinese manufacturer represents their widget as non-chinese.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  yeah there are many legal problems: no work authorization to being paid by a US company sanctions violations misrepresenting at all (I think tech hiring should be double-blind though) and given that some employers combat this by asking candidates to insult Kim Jong Un, this is a legal problems in North Korea if the candidate passes! but to me, these are all fake problems. these are competent human beings that are just doing the job description. not leaving backdoors, not taking trade secrets. just “owning” the signup page of the same pointless copycat startup as any American dev.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >but to me, these are all fake problems. these are competent human beings that are just doing the job description. not leaving backdoors, not taking trade secrets. just “owning” the signup page of the same pointless copycat startup as any American dev. Going back to my previous comment, do you think a chinese manufacturer labeling their products as non-chinese is also a "fake problem"? After all, if the product works as advertised, and is the same quality as the japanese/german equivalent, who cares?
    - yieldcrv 2y ago
      I think they are separate problems in isolation and couldn't be used to either bolster or discredit this particular issue
      - gruez 2y ago
        >and couldn't be used to either bolster or discredit this particular issue Why not? You're making the argument that north korean lying about where they're from is fine because they're "just doing the job description". However, if you think that chinese goods should be properly labeled, even if they're effectively the same as non-chinese goods, it stands to reason that north korean labor should be properly labeled, even if they're effectively the same thing. Failure to address this inconsistency makes your reasoning seem capricious and unpersuasive.
        yieldcrv 2y ago
        > Why not? its prudent to identify and never engage in a strawman fallacy, which involves introducing an argument that was never the one under discussion in order to discredit the one that was, in amusing textbook fashion you follow this with > Failure to address this inconsistency makes your reasoning seem capricious and unpersuasive When the typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition looks like we are at an impasse, but maybe you can find someone else to engage with
        gruez 2y ago
        >its prudent to identify and never engage in a strawman fallacy, which involves introducing an argument that was never the one under discussion in order to discredit the one that was, in amusing textbook fashion you follow this with I'm not sure what your basis for the "strawman fallacy" is from. If you read my comments carefully, I've never claimed that you supposed mislabeled chinese goods, only that it's the logical conclusion if you support workers lying about where they're from. That's not the same as strawman. >[...] do you think a chinese manufacturer labeling their products as non-chinese is also a "fake problem? >However, if you think that chinese goods should be properly labeled [...] (emphasis mine) Now that I restated my argument more clearly, why don't you think the two cases can be equated? You haven't address aside from casually dismissing it with "I think they are separate problems in isolation".

North Koreans doing the actual work isn’t fraud to me. But I understand your point. Silicon Valley is built by Russian money in VC funds being spent on North Korean employees.

gruez 2y ago

>North Koreans doing the actual work isn’t fraud to me. It's fraud when you misrepresent yourself as not-north korean, just like if a chinese manufacturer represents their widget as non-chinese.

yieldcrv 2y ago
yeah there are many legal problems: no work authorization to being paid by a US company sanctions violations misrepresenting at all (I think tech hiring should be double-blind though) and given that some employers combat this by asking candidates to insult Kim Jong Un, this is a legal problems in North Korea if the candidate passes! but to me, these are all fake problems. these are competent human beings that are just doing the job description. not leaving backdoors, not taking trade secrets. just “owning” the signup page of the same pointless copycat startup as any American dev.
- gruez 2y ago
  >but to me, these are all fake problems. these are competent human beings that are just doing the job description. not leaving backdoors, not taking trade secrets. just “owning” the signup page of the same pointless copycat startup as any American dev. Going back to my previous comment, do you think a chinese manufacturer labeling their products as non-chinese is also a "fake problem"? After all, if the product works as advertised, and is the same quality as the japanese/german equivalent, who cares?
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    I think they are separate problems in isolation and couldn't be used to either bolster or discredit this particular issue
    - gruez 2y ago
      >and couldn't be used to either bolster or discredit this particular issue Why not? You're making the argument that north korean lying about where they're from is fine because they're "just doing the job description". However, if you think that chinese goods should be properly labeled, even if they're effectively the same as non-chinese goods, it stands to reason that north korean labor should be properly labeled, even if they're effectively the same thing. Failure to address this inconsistency makes your reasoning seem capricious and unpersuasive.
      - yieldcrv 2y ago
        > Why not? its prudent to identify and never engage in a strawman fallacy, which involves introducing an argument that was never the one under discussion in order to discredit the one that was, in amusing textbook fashion you follow this with > Failure to address this inconsistency makes your reasoning seem capricious and unpersuasive When the typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition looks like we are at an impasse, but maybe you can find someone else to engage with
        gruez 2y ago
        >its prudent to identify and never engage in a strawman fallacy, which involves introducing an argument that was never the one under discussion in order to discredit the one that was, in amusing textbook fashion you follow this with I'm not sure what your basis for the "strawman fallacy" is from. If you read my comments carefully, I've never claimed that you supposed mislabeled chinese goods, only that it's the logical conclusion if you support workers lying about where they're from. That's not the same as strawman. >[...] do you think a chinese manufacturer labeling their products as non-chinese is also a "fake problem? >However, if you think that chinese goods should be properly labeled [...] (emphasis mine) Now that I restated my argument more clearly, why don't you think the two cases can be equated? You haven't address aside from casually dismissing it with "I think they are separate problems in isolation".