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I can appreciate the ability to revert to hand cranking an air compressor, yet I can't help but feel that the 99.99% of events, you'd be better served with keep

I can appreciate the ability to revert to hand cranking an air compressor, yet I can't help but feel that the 99.99% of events, you'd be better served with keeping a two stroke gas engine ready to go. Air compressors tend to have parts just as or more vulnerable to environmental factors, and you get a lot more power for less elbow grease out of a two stroke.

Symbiote 2y ago
A power station can start a decently large generator with batteries. Maybe there are other concerns for an oil rig.
- tonyarkles 2y ago
  Batteries are great when they have charge. What happens if the generator doesn't want to start the first, second, and third time? How many start attempts do you get before the batteries are dead? The hand-pumped air compressor is the tool of last resort. You can try an engine start if there's someone there who's able to pump it. You don't have to worry about how much charge is left in your batteries or whether or not the gasoline for the 2-stroke pump engine has gone stale. It's the tool that you use as an alternative to "well, the batteries are dead too, guess we're not going to start the engine tonight... let's call the helicopters and abandon ship"
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    The data center where I work has large diesel generators for power cuts. They are electric (battery) start. There is no capability to start them manually. The batteries are on maintenance chargers that keep them in good condition. The generators are started and tested every two weeks. Could the batteries be dead and the generators not start? I guess but it's very unlikely. I get that on an oil rig it might be a matter of life and death and you need some kind of manual way to bootstrap but there's not much that's more reliable than a 12V lead-acid battery and a diesel engine in good condition.
    - petertodd 2y ago
      Also, the data center is probably in a city, surrounded by infrastructure that could be used if necessary. An oil rig is in the middle of an ocean, and has to rely on itself.
    - rainbowzootsuit 2y ago
      I worked with a telecom provider's data center that ended up having a quad redundant diesel generator failure during the first cold snap that took the Texas grid offline a few years back. They had at three fuel supplies gel and then failed to start. The fourth, as I remember, just didn't try to fire.
    - 20after4 2y ago
      Lead acid batteries are not exactly what I would call reliable. They require a lot of constant maintenance to ensure that they will work when you need them and they can easily degrade in such a way that they maintain voltage and appear to be good but then fail to deliver the needed amps when you demand them. This is made much worse in cold weather. Finally, if allowed to freeze when they are moderately drained, then the accumulated water inside will freeze and drastically shorten their life span. I think I'd take Lithium Ion batteries over lead acid for almost every conceivable use-case. They are superior in almost every way. Lighter, less likely to leak acid everywhere, better long term storage (due to a low self-discharge) and better cold weather discharge performance. The only drawback would be a slightly increased risk of fire with Lithium.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
        Yawn. Have you ever heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery#Gel_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery#Gel_battery Mr.Model-Tee?
      - LorenPechtel 2y ago
        Yeah. I've watched a UPS kick in with old batteries. The steps on the power gauge ticked off every couple of seconds.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    It's unrealistic, and if one power station is unable to use their batteries to start their emergency generator (through the absurd incompetence you describe, or more likely through a major fire, flood or assault) the grid can be started from a different one.
Damogran6 2y ago
Not being at all qualified to comment (though I work for a power company), I'd think the hand crank air compressor wouldn't suffer from no spark or bad gas.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  Stale gas was my guess for the plan. Maintaining an emergency system is one of those things that is easy to neglect.
  - zdragnar 2y ago
    If stale gas is a concern, then all of the other steps in-between zero power and your full start are also screwed. Air compressors have more valves and gaskets that are vulnerable to oxidation, especially in salty environments, so I'd have thought the upkeep between the two, the two stroke would be easier.
    - LorenPechtel 2y ago
      But it's an emergency system, not a general operation system. Thus it's not going to be exposed to the salty environment most of the time. You could certainly put the whole thing in an airtight box. Look at how the military builds surface-based missiles these days: it's in a factory-sealed box. Molten salt batteries so they last for decades. (You don't see molten salt in most purposes because once it's been triggered it's lifespan is in minutes or even less. They're used in applications that only need to deliver power once.)
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    It’s quite funny to think about. Having good, fresh fuel on an oil rig. They need an engine that can run on crude.
    - baq 2y ago
      Diesel will run on mostly anything if it’s running… including methane in the air intake, so you need to think quickly when presented with a generator that keeps running after cutting the fuel
oilman 2y ago
In 99.99% of real-world scenarios, the rig would have other options to bootstrap a black start—like fully charged air tanks, backup power from a support vessel, or even emergency battery systems. The hand-cranked air compressor is really a last resort tool. We test it during commissioning to prove it could work, but in most cases, it’s never used again in the rig’s working life. It’s there for the rarest situations—like if a rig was abandoned during a hurricane, drifted off station, and someone somehow ended up back onboard without normal support. It’s a true "everything else failed" kind of backup.
- ale42 2y ago
  Nice to see that at least in some places people are actually thinking to almost-impossible scenarios and taking them into account. I have the feeling that it's quite unlike most infrastructure development nowadays, unfortunately.
  - vlachen 2y ago
    The key is the responsible party's skin in that particular game. A drilling rig is a very large, very expensive, and very lucrative man-made island. The backed-up backups have backups. Not only could it be very far away from support vessels, capable of bringing it online in every situation, every minute not in production is money thrown overboard.
    - ale42 2y ago
      Very true, although I think that economic arguments can apply to most infrastructure. What are the actual costs of a day-long nationwide blackout? I have no actual idea, but I'd not be surprised if they exceed 1 billion {EUR|USD}.
      - lazide 2y ago
        The part you are missing is ‘paid by whom’. Unlikely the power companies or regulator is going to be paying that amount here. It’s all the poor saps who didn’t have sufficient backup capacity. There will be costs/losses by the various power companies which weren’t generating during all this of course, but also fixing this is by definition outside of their control (the grid operators are the ones responsible). I’m sure public backlash will cause some changes of course. But the same situation in Texas didn’t result in the meaningful changes one would expect.
morning-coffee 2y ago
Based on how difficult it can be to start my chain-saw, snow-blower, and motorcycle after they've sat without being run for a while, I'd not recommend a gasoline-powered engine to be the only thing on stand-by.
- zdragnar 2y ago
  Air compressors in adverse environments don't hold up that well either, without basic maintenance. I've had engines run seasonally for decades. It doesn't take much for them to keep working well, though doing nothing at all is an easy way to clog up the carburator.
  - ForOldHack 2y ago
    You have to empty the compressor of wate. Some times a lot of water. I've seen a 33g tank with 25gs of water.
    - lazide 2y ago
      Compressor pistons/screws that ingest grit/dirt, or aren’t run often enough to boil the water out of them, also tend to not last long. I used to help run a volunteer workshop with an Atlas Copco screw compressor, and it died in a few years because it wasn’t being run hard enough and the screws rusted (doh!).
- giantg2 2y ago
  It shouldn't be that bad. A little fogging oil when put away and drain all the fuel. Then a little starting fluid on the first couple start attempts. Usually they start fairly quickly if they're in decent shape. And that's just for pull starts. My electric start mower starts right up after even 5 months of not running with stabilizer in the fuel.
  - ForOldHack 2y ago
    God bless Lucas stablier, and damn Joseph Lucas, prince of darkness. Any chance the stuff in Spain is made in England?
BenjiWiebe 2y ago
As an ex small engine mechanic, I'd advise against using a 2 stroke for something like that. A 4 stroke would be a better bet. Better yet would be a natural gas/propane 4 stroke, since gasoline goes stale and plugs carburetors. Small diesels could be an option but they're harder to pull start for a given size.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  Do you have any small engine mechanic books you'd recommend? They're my kryptonite, but I accept it's mostly my ignorance.
  - rainbowzootsuit 2y ago
    Not a manual in particular, but this is the Bob Ross of small engine repairs' channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr_GXW2Y56hOpGchXYNqZOQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr_GXW2Y56hOpGchXYNqZOQ
  - 486sx33 2y ago
    R. Bruce Radcliff Small Engines 4th Edition ISBN-13: 978-0826900333, ISBN-10: 082690033X
  - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
    I learned from another mechanic, no book recommendations, sorry.
- Kon-Peki 2y ago
  > Small diesels could be an option but they're harder to pull start for a given size. I once needed to jump-start a small marine diesel, many miles from land... There was a small lever that cuts compression. You have to get it spinning really fast before restoring compression! It's definitely a lot of work! EDIT - Here is a cheap modern small marine diesel [1]. The operation manual suggests that you don't have to do anything to get it spinning quickly, you just have to crank it 10 times, put away the crank handle, and then flip the compression switch. That's progress! [1] https://www.yanmar.com/marine/product/engines/1gm10-marine-diesel-engine/ https://www.yanmar.com/marine/product/engines/1gm10-marine-d...
stronglikedan 2y ago
I'd rather bet on the simplicity of a glorified bicycle pump than the complexity of an engine any day, but then again, I'd probably have both!

Symbiote 2y ago

A power station can start a decently large generator with batteries. Maybe there are other concerns for an oil rig.

tonyarkles 2y ago
Batteries are great when they have charge. What happens if the generator doesn't want to start the first, second, and third time? How many start attempts do you get before the batteries are dead? The hand-pumped air compressor is the tool of last resort. You can try an engine start if there's someone there who's able to pump it. You don't have to worry about how much charge is left in your batteries or whether or not the gasoline for the 2-stroke pump engine has gone stale. It's the tool that you use as an alternative to "well, the batteries are dead too, guess we're not going to start the engine tonight... let's call the helicopters and abandon ship"
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  The data center where I work has large diesel generators for power cuts. They are electric (battery) start. There is no capability to start them manually. The batteries are on maintenance chargers that keep them in good condition. The generators are started and tested every two weeks. Could the batteries be dead and the generators not start? I guess but it's very unlikely. I get that on an oil rig it might be a matter of life and death and you need some kind of manual way to bootstrap but there's not much that's more reliable than a 12V lead-acid battery and a diesel engine in good condition.
  - petertodd 2y ago
    Also, the data center is probably in a city, surrounded by infrastructure that could be used if necessary. An oil rig is in the middle of an ocean, and has to rely on itself.
  - rainbowzootsuit 2y ago
    I worked with a telecom provider's data center that ended up having a quad redundant diesel generator failure during the first cold snap that took the Texas grid offline a few years back. They had at three fuel supplies gel and then failed to start. The fourth, as I remember, just didn't try to fire.
  - 20after4 2y ago
    Lead acid batteries are not exactly what I would call reliable. They require a lot of constant maintenance to ensure that they will work when you need them and they can easily degrade in such a way that they maintain voltage and appear to be good but then fail to deliver the needed amps when you demand them. This is made much worse in cold weather. Finally, if allowed to freeze when they are moderately drained, then the accumulated water inside will freeze and drastically shorten their life span. I think I'd take Lithium Ion batteries over lead acid for almost every conceivable use-case. They are superior in almost every way. Lighter, less likely to leak acid everywhere, better long term storage (due to a low self-discharge) and better cold weather discharge performance. The only drawback would be a slightly increased risk of fire with Lithium.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
      Yawn. Have you ever heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery#Gel_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery#Gel_battery Mr.Model-Tee?
    - LorenPechtel 2y ago
      Yeah. I've watched a UPS kick in with old batteries. The steps on the power gauge ticked off every couple of seconds.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  It's unrealistic, and if one power station is unable to use their batteries to start their emergency generator (through the absurd incompetence you describe, or more likely through a major fire, flood or assault) the grid can be started from a different one.

Damogran6 2y ago

Not being at all qualified to comment (though I work for a power company), I'd think the hand crank air compressor wouldn't suffer from no spark or bad gas.

0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
Stale gas was my guess for the plan. Maintaining an emergency system is one of those things that is easy to neglect.
- zdragnar 2y ago
  If stale gas is a concern, then all of the other steps in-between zero power and your full start are also screwed. Air compressors have more valves and gaskets that are vulnerable to oxidation, especially in salty environments, so I'd have thought the upkeep between the two, the two stroke would be easier.
  - LorenPechtel 2y ago
    But it's an emergency system, not a general operation system. Thus it's not going to be exposed to the salty environment most of the time. You could certainly put the whole thing in an airtight box. Look at how the military builds surface-based missiles these days: it's in a factory-sealed box. Molten salt batteries so they last for decades. (You don't see molten salt in most purposes because once it's been triggered it's lifespan is in minutes or even less. They're used in applications that only need to deliver power once.)
- lostlogin 2y ago
  It’s quite funny to think about. Having good, fresh fuel on an oil rig. They need an engine that can run on crude.
  - baq 2y ago
    Diesel will run on mostly anything if it’s running… including methane in the air intake, so you need to think quickly when presented with a generator that keeps running after cutting the fuel

oilman 2y ago

In 99.99% of real-world scenarios, the rig would have other options to bootstrap a black start—like fully charged air tanks, backup power from a support vessel, or even emergency battery systems. The hand-cranked air compressor is really a last resort tool. We test it during commissioning to prove it could work, but in most cases, it’s never used again in the rig’s working life. It’s there for the rarest situations—like if a rig was abandoned during a hurricane, drifted off station, and someone somehow ended up back onboard without normal support. It’s a true "everything else failed" kind of backup.

ale42 2y ago
Nice to see that at least in some places people are actually thinking to almost-impossible scenarios and taking them into account. I have the feeling that it's quite unlike most infrastructure development nowadays, unfortunately.
- vlachen 2y ago
  The key is the responsible party's skin in that particular game. A drilling rig is a very large, very expensive, and very lucrative man-made island. The backed-up backups have backups. Not only could it be very far away from support vessels, capable of bringing it online in every situation, every minute not in production is money thrown overboard.
  - ale42 2y ago
    Very true, although I think that economic arguments can apply to most infrastructure. What are the actual costs of a day-long nationwide blackout? I have no actual idea, but I'd not be surprised if they exceed 1 billion {EUR|USD}.
    - lazide 2y ago
      The part you are missing is ‘paid by whom’. Unlikely the power companies or regulator is going to be paying that amount here. It’s all the poor saps who didn’t have sufficient backup capacity. There will be costs/losses by the various power companies which weren’t generating during all this of course, but also fixing this is by definition outside of their control (the grid operators are the ones responsible). I’m sure public backlash will cause some changes of course. But the same situation in Texas didn’t result in the meaningful changes one would expect.

morning-coffee 2y ago

Based on how difficult it can be to start my chain-saw, snow-blower, and motorcycle after they've sat without being run for a while, I'd not recommend a gasoline-powered engine to be the only thing on stand-by.

zdragnar 2y ago
Air compressors in adverse environments don't hold up that well either, without basic maintenance. I've had engines run seasonally for decades. It doesn't take much for them to keep working well, though doing nothing at all is an easy way to clog up the carburator.
- ForOldHack 2y ago
  You have to empty the compressor of wate. Some times a lot of water. I've seen a 33g tank with 25gs of water.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Compressor pistons/screws that ingest grit/dirt, or aren’t run often enough to boil the water out of them, also tend to not last long. I used to help run a volunteer workshop with an Atlas Copco screw compressor, and it died in a few years because it wasn’t being run hard enough and the screws rusted (doh!).
giantg2 2y ago
It shouldn't be that bad. A little fogging oil when put away and drain all the fuel. Then a little starting fluid on the first couple start attempts. Usually they start fairly quickly if they're in decent shape. And that's just for pull starts. My electric start mower starts right up after even 5 months of not running with stabilizer in the fuel.
- ForOldHack 2y ago
  God bless Lucas stablier, and damn Joseph Lucas, prince of darkness. Any chance the stuff in Spain is made in England?

BenjiWiebe 2y ago

As an ex small engine mechanic, I'd advise against using a 2 stroke for something like that. A 4 stroke would be a better bet. Better yet would be a natural gas/propane 4 stroke, since gasoline goes stale and plugs carburetors. Small diesels could be an option but they're harder to pull start for a given size.

ethbr1 2y ago
Do you have any small engine mechanic books you'd recommend? They're my kryptonite, but I accept it's mostly my ignorance.
- rainbowzootsuit 2y ago
  Not a manual in particular, but this is the Bob Ross of small engine repairs' channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr_GXW2Y56hOpGchXYNqZOQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr_GXW2Y56hOpGchXYNqZOQ
- 486sx33 2y ago
  R. Bruce Radcliff Small Engines 4th Edition ISBN-13: 978-0826900333, ISBN-10: 082690033X
- BenjiWiebe 2y ago
  I learned from another mechanic, no book recommendations, sorry.
Kon-Peki 2y ago
> Small diesels could be an option but they're harder to pull start for a given size. I once needed to jump-start a small marine diesel, many miles from land... There was a small lever that cuts compression. You have to get it spinning really fast before restoring compression! It's definitely a lot of work! EDIT - Here is a cheap modern small marine diesel [1]. The operation manual suggests that you don't have to do anything to get it spinning quickly, you just have to crank it 10 times, put away the crank handle, and then flip the compression switch. That's progress! [1] https://www.yanmar.com/marine/product/engines/1gm10-marine-diesel-engine/ https://www.yanmar.com/marine/product/engines/1gm10-marine-d...

stronglikedan 2y ago

I'd rather bet on the simplicity of a glorified bicycle pump than the complexity of an engine any day, but then again, I'd probably have both!