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I think death being natural lends a lot of credence to the idea that it’s normal — as normal as life. And I’d say most people probably don’t fear death or non-

by caseyy 1y ago

I think death being natural lends a lot of credence to the idea that it’s normal — as normal as life. And I’d say most people probably don’t fear death or non-existence itself, but rather the process of dying (suffering, stress, pain, shame, loss of agency, the grief inflicted on others, etc). In palliative care settings, where the process of dying is well-managed (physically, emotionally, spiritually), people don’t seem to be that afraid. Many make peace. Or at least that’s the image painted by popular science articles on the matter. And speaking for myself, N=1 and all, I really do fear the process only, and not the conclusion. That’s why I think dignified death laws for these settings are important. And why I say I fear what society will put me through when it’s my time, if such laws aren’t passed. I am concerned in general about me living past my health-span. It’s a new concern for many, as medicine traditionally focused on prolonging lifespan. But now people are talking about how full of suffering life is when one doesn’t have whatever minimum of health they deem required to live, but are kept alive anyways. Sometimes agains their wishes. It’s just a macabre prolongation of the process of dying — something that really is scary. Or that’s what I’m afraid of, anyways. But I understand it’s a difficult and somewhat taboo topic in society, so apols if it offends.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> now people are talking about how full of suffering life is when one doesn’t have whatever minimum of health they deem required to live, but are kept alive anyways This is more a social anxiety than reflection of reality. To the extent we’re prolonging suffering, it’s on the order of weeks, maybe months. Not years. Most people fear death. That’s natural. Some of us, due to being stupid, depressed or possibly enlightened, don’t. But these fears evolved for obvious reasons.
- caseyy 1y ago
  I disagree. There is increasing conversation in the medical community[0] about living past one’s health-span for years. While fear of death is widely considered universal, many people (for various reasons) fear death significantly less than others[1]. Fear of death levels appear to generally stabilize to low past 60 years of age. Many philosophies reject the fear of death, including some of our very popular religions. Only about half of terminally ill patients feel clinically significant death anxiety[2]. It is normal to not fear death without being depressed, enlightened, or stupid. I think it’s not so black and white as evolutionary psychology might suggest. [0] https://peterattiamd.com/outlive/ https://peterattiamd.com/outlive/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35609222/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35609222/
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > increasing conversation in the medical community[0] about living past one’s health-span for years Sure. This doesn't reflect the popular discourse, which is more concerned with fantastical edge cases. > fear death significantly less than others Totally agree. > Only about half of terminally ill patients feel clinically significant death anxiety Massive difference between death anxiety, which crosses into dreadful anticipation of a future state, and fear, which is more of a present concern. I fear getting hit by a car. I'm not really concerned with it most of the time. (And when I am, it's fleeting and limmited.) When you say fearing death, I think you mean obsessing over death. That, I agree, is unhealthy. Fear, more generally, is an unpleasantness that results from dangers or threats. Death is very clearly a danger and threat. Contemplating it doesn't need to be uncomfortable. But it's dedidedly unnatural, if alluring, to consider one's own death monotonoically. (For what it's worth, this is closer to my experience. But I also know I have a high risk tolerance, and have to consciously keep an eye on that.)
- TylerE 1y ago
  Quality of life is often gone long before there is any imminant chance of death. Chronic pain, loss of mobility, memory, visikn, and hearing deteriorating. Drugs and all their side effects.
  - lotsofpulp 1y ago
    There is a very large gradient. Even all of those symptoms, while lower quality of life than when they were in their prime, are a far cry from being in a hospital/nursing home, with random people poking needles into you all the time, and that is a best case scenario. I know from seeing my grandparents, who lived into upper 90s. At home, they were still happy. Being poked and prodded in a hospital is a material step down in quality of life. On top of that, imagine having a breathing tube/catheter/etc.
bluecheese452 1y ago
Plenty of people fear non existence. Pretty bizarre to claim otherwise.

by caseyy 1y ago

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> now people are talking about how full of suffering life is when one doesn’t have whatever minimum of health they deem required to live, but are kept alive anyways This is more a social anxiety than reflection of reality. To the extent we’re prolonging suffering, it’s on the order of weeks, maybe months. Not years. Most people fear death. That’s natural. Some of us, due to being stupid, depressed or possibly enlightened, don’t. But these fears evolved for obvious reasons.

caseyy 1y ago
I disagree. There is increasing conversation in the medical community[0] about living past one’s health-span for years. While fear of death is widely considered universal, many people (for various reasons) fear death significantly less than others[1]. Fear of death levels appear to generally stabilize to low past 60 years of age. Many philosophies reject the fear of death, including some of our very popular religions. Only about half of terminally ill patients feel clinically significant death anxiety[2]. It is normal to not fear death without being depressed, enlightened, or stupid. I think it’s not so black and white as evolutionary psychology might suggest. [0] https://peterattiamd.com/outlive/ https://peterattiamd.com/outlive/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35609222/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35609222/
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > increasing conversation in the medical community[0] about living past one’s health-span for years Sure. This doesn't reflect the popular discourse, which is more concerned with fantastical edge cases. > fear death significantly less than others Totally agree. > Only about half of terminally ill patients feel clinically significant death anxiety Massive difference between death anxiety, which crosses into dreadful anticipation of a future state, and fear, which is more of a present concern. I fear getting hit by a car. I'm not really concerned with it most of the time. (And when I am, it's fleeting and limmited.) When you say fearing death, I think you mean obsessing over death. That, I agree, is unhealthy. Fear, more generally, is an unpleasantness that results from dangers or threats. Death is very clearly a danger and threat. Contemplating it doesn't need to be uncomfortable. But it's dedidedly unnatural, if alluring, to consider one's own death monotonoically. (For what it's worth, this is closer to my experience. But I also know I have a high risk tolerance, and have to consciously keep an eye on that.)
TylerE 1y ago
Quality of life is often gone long before there is any imminant chance of death. Chronic pain, loss of mobility, memory, visikn, and hearing deteriorating. Drugs and all their side effects.
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  There is a very large gradient. Even all of those symptoms, while lower quality of life than when they were in their prime, are a far cry from being in a hospital/nursing home, with random people poking needles into you all the time, and that is a best case scenario. I know from seeing my grandparents, who lived into upper 90s. At home, they were still happy. Being poked and prodded in a hospital is a material step down in quality of life. On top of that, imagine having a breathing tube/catheter/etc.

bluecheese452 1y ago

Plenty of people fear non existence. Pretty bizarre to claim otherwise.